better optics, gun depression, gun handling aswell and reverse speed
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And gun depresssion, which, granted, doesnt come into play often on urban maps, but anywhere else its crucial.
I dont know directly, but the post did make up a load of factually incorrect information to promote a narrative that didnt really make sense. Like German Tornado IDS being worse than the italian tornado IDS because the Italian Tornado IDS gets AGM-65s
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Ah that explains the title. Let me guess Germany suffers
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W temporary hidden
OP effectively tried to make second premium tornado topic as follow up to this:
but tried to hide it by talking about germany ground first before going back to yapping about premium tornado
Read through that exchange and you get pretty much what was being told here.
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Yep, basically, though it was impossible to actually follow because they’d swap between discussing GRB as a reason why an aircraft was bad in ARB and then swap back to GRB, all in the same sentence.
I didnt really pay attention to the tank stuff though because it was about BRs I dont play
only thing that germany suffers in is lack of new vehicles per update that arent premium
they get some like random costal boat and a destroyer and thats it then like 5 premiums
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Hopefully they get something new for top tier maybe that’ll help these type of forums from popping up. It’s getting worse and worse each day. I personally don’t think new vehicles is going to help the German mindset but at least it’ll keep them distracted for a while.
I mean Germany suffers in the same way Italy or Sweden or Japan does.
Having massive gaps between br lineups.
Now it’s fine with those nations because outside of the ho-ri situation, you rarely see more than 3 of those nation players at a time, might see all three nations holding like 7-9 players of a match but it’s rare.
Now you get Germany where from 6.7 to 9.3, you get only 4 lineups, 6.7, 8.0, 8.7(and this is a recent change so for years they only had 3 lineups) and 9.3. which means 6.7 games in a full uptier, your chances of having top tier members are like 10%, and even if you have all 4, the majority of the team will consists of 6.7s creating a massive power vacuum for German teams (this is before we bring up the fact Germany 7.7 is bad.) This problem pretty much continues as you go, got an 8.0 full uptier? Well good luck because Germany doesn’t really have a 8.3 lineup nor an 9.0 meaning you’re relying on the few 8.7s to do the bulk of the work.
Really we need to do one of two things, first is to make Germany a minor nation where you need to reach rank 5 in another nation to get access (like Israel) which will massively hurt gaijin due to how many players join to play German tanks. Or Germany gets a massive update giving them actual lineups across most br brackets, which creates a new problem, post 8.0 you have options but before that you run into a massive 20 year capability gap, because you know Germany didn’t restart home grown tank development until the late 50s so even prototypes would be 7.7s or 7.3s, which means blueprint tanks.
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This sounds great.
But better this:
I would also add France, China and even Israel.
Or just regular additions without empty updates or only reintroduction of vehicles which have already been added previously into other trees.
So more people would choose them as their first tree.
I mean several T72M1s are amon the couple of best performing tanks at 9.3 considering K/D and K/S (besides some very strong premium outliers). Even the german one is quite high up on the ladder, surprisingly.
The armor and very good gun/round apparently works pretty well in that BR range, and as long as youve got alternatives for hilly maps and more mobile alternatives for very large maps you can just bring the t72 on maps where it shines: urban cqc without hills. Kinda funny how much the different mbt doctrines still differ at that BR and how vastly different vehicles of the same vehicle class play there. while at top tier, almost everything plays almost exactly the same, and basically everything has the same weakspots considering western tanks and Russian/chinese. So much more variety at 9.3 and you can still play something that feels fundamentally different than a t72 or your generic MBT that plays like all the other MBTs…Light tanks or other vehicle classes are basically absolutely pointless to bring in top tier except for maybe 3 exceptions: HSTVL, CV90120 (i love you my insane commander zoom goobr) and Centauro II)
Oh defo, thats why i have/had it up until very recently (cant remember rn) in my lineup.
But lets be fair, Leopard 1A5 does the heavy lifting most of the time and is more suited to the edging (har har) meta.
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Yeah id guess if 9.3 would be played in tournaments, the top teams basically never would play t72s. Too immobile, not versatile enough. But idk. Most tournament matches i watched even at top tier were on rather small urban maps (didnt watch many though), but ofc thats also bc of low player number per team to make it somewhat possible to commentate. Imagine top tier tournaments with 20 players per team on the egregious small eastern europe map with all 3 caps 150 m next to each other xD Mayhem…Thinking about it though, Id definitely watch that commentated in the most passionate language that sounds as different as possible from the ones i speak. Maybe Hindi would be fun…and then screaming…all the time screaming. And a beer…
On random battles though a mindlessly rushing t72 at a bad moment, even if he has 0 clue what hes doign and doesnt know of your presence can rly fk you over by making you wiff a crucial shot. Ofc that situation wont happen in competitive play with 5 players per team. Everyone in those matches knows 100% of the time where every single enemy is 30 sec after match start…
Well you do better in the t72 than the kpz by quite a margin (just like the global stats show for both vehicles). If you need to have played like 30k+ games in grb or be a tournament tryhard just to be able to get better results in the kpz than the t72, is the kpz really the better vehicle?
I have a feeling that some people here, you included, just generally call any german vehicle the best vehicle at its br, just because it is german. There are no bad german vehicles, they are just played incorrectly. On the other side, if any other nations’ vehicles is performing poorly it is not the players but the vehicle.
Mobility is a point, yes, but I have a feeling that a lot people greatly overestimate the mobility of the leopards 1s. The t72 is not a slow vehicle either. It has better hp/t and only a slightly lower top speed. Even at 9.3+ you get a lot of small and/or urban maps where a leopard 1 will get to a position only a few seconds before a t72 at best. A good number of wheeled and light vehicles, some premiums like the of40, amx30 super and xm1s and a few 35mm spaag’s are noticably faster.
So all in all the leopard 1 has a similar mobility than a t72, with significantly less protection and survivability, while other mbts like the amx30 super have similar survivability than a leopard 1 but are much more mobile.
Unsurprisingly, the leopard 1a5 does pretty poorly in all nations that have it:
Mobility for lots of people, or in general, doesnt only include forward acceleration and top speed. To work some positions well you need to move all over the place, turn, go back, find a different angle.
Though considering just forward speed youre right, to get into early or your first position it usually or in most cases doesnt differ too much from a leo to a t72. And t72 is safer doing so for being a bit slower. The surprise strafe or cross map autocannon is much less likely to take you out or crit you, should you catch a shot while moving there. So thats a fair tradeoff id say…But the leo also has a lot more positions it can work in on lots of more open maps, while t72 has the edge in egopeeking around buildings on city maps.
I think both vehicles having a much different skill floor and skill ceiling also plays a major role here…The most clueless t72 player ever coming around a corner at a bad moment to a enemy thats already under pressure from an enemy can fk the best player ever over. To fumble a desparate snapshot vs a leo is much more unlikely.
I also think the t72 is better suited for positions where it can be hull down since the turret is pretty though to pen for most things. With the leo as soon as you peak, virtually everything can and will pen you regardless. It is also one of the reasons why I started to love the chieftains and chally ds. They are monsters in good hull down positions and give quite a bit of confidence.
I fully agree. It is sad for me as I really like the leo1s, but I don’t want to tryhard everytime I play them to do well.
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note that german T-72M1 was added quite after Kpz70.
I played 90% of Kpz70 games back when TURMS-T was highest russian premium at 9.7. So 2020ish. german T-72M1 was added in 2023. 3 year gap. I was entirelly different player then. Im entirely different player now when compared to 2023.
Theres reason we differentiate between skill floor and skill ceiling. Kpz70 has high skill ceiling, T-72M1 has low skill floor. Its the same as if you compared 10.7 M1 Abrams and 10.7 T-80UD. Put anyone in T-80UD and they will do at least okay, but any better player will tell you M1 Abrams is the better tank out of the two.
I am what would you call german main, and trust me when I say there are terrible german vehicles.
And once there, only Leopard 1A5 will be able to reverse back into safety if he realizes he overextended. T-72M1 has to, as they say, “fk it we ball”.
Beside
is where you want to play T-72M1 over Leopard. As I said in one of the earlier comments:
and notice most of these are closer to Leopard 1A5 in characteristics than they are to T-72M1.
Oh absolutely, as long as you have to sit somewhere hull down where only the turret or parts of the turret arent behind cover. But those positions are quite rare…I mean in the t72 you cant peek over most hills at all bc of no gun depression and in the leo you cant peek as soon as anyone knows youre there or is looking at you. Considering hills where you can be tank-down option 2 is million times better than option one. In the leo you can at least peak without your gun pointing into the sky :-D in the t72 you basically cant peak at all, unless youd also bet your firstborn on the enemy not hitting something crucial in those 5 seconds till you get a shot and all the seconds after, that you need to get back to safety. I’m quite positive that thats why any of the top players will get 10 times better results in a leo on a hilly map than in a t72. The more unlikely it is you make a mistake, dont know about an enemy or whiff a shot, the more useless armor becomes. And to have 100 times more positions where you can get a shot is way worth it then instead of jsut sitting around, knowing you cant peek anywhere.
Thats because most people dont know about the turret roof.