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The problem isn’t the Tornado itself. The Tornado is a fine airframe in the right hands with the right tools.
No it’s pretty trash actually. One of the worst airframes BR for BR.
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BR is a completely separate can of worms either way, and I’ll be honest Gaijin have been inflating top tiers with some ridiculous vehicles that should not be even close to the same BR range.
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I started playing Germany a long time ago and its still my most played nation.
Lets be honest here. Its both. And thats fine.
German mid tier is popular, a tree thats popular wont have the same average skill level as a less popular tree and once mid tier is over and were going into the 7.7+ BRs the lineups genuinely arent that easy to play.
Im not saying that there arent problems with the lineups like the almost complete lack of variety in mid tier or that most of the great CAS is locked behind a paywall.
The real design issue is that Gaijin does a terrible job at actually teaching the game. The tutorials arent any good and especially popular tanks or at the very least every premium should have its own tutorial that goes more into depth.
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Unfortunately true, frustration is part of the business model after all.
The tornados at their current BRs are never going to be good fighters. They’re too slow, burn way too much fuel and handle like a cargo container ship. The only one that comes marginally close is the F3 in a full downtier because it can just bully things with skyflash supertemps.
Even then the F4S is the same BR as it and is a much better aircraft.
I do like quite a few BRs for germany. 9.7 is incredibly fun, love the wiesel 1A2. 10.7/10.3 can also be fun too, hull down vilkas is enjoyable.
Youre doing the literal “germany suffers” meme and it makes everything for other german mains harder if they ever want to baalance something out.
Stop it.
Not nation specific.
Implying germany doesnt have strong 6.7 lineup is a choice.
Uptiers arent problem unqiue to germany.
Even if, german 9.3/9.7 is rather useful in uptiers. Leopard 1A5 has thermals as well and pen higher than 2A4, Ozelot is entirely passive system, Kpz70 has good mobility and 6 sec reload, swiss Hunter is at 9.7 with mavericks, Begleit exists etc.
Kontakt-1 is hardly a threat unless youre firing chemical ammo.
Skill issue.
Thats precisely the problem
It is competetive.
It sits at higher BR in ground and A2G dont affect ARB.
entirely different variant?
Italian tornado gets mavericks??
Youre duplicating your topic about premium tornado by trying to make it about germany as a whole before resorting to yapping about tornado again.
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Well, I was fortunate enough to have someone teach me how to play, and even then it’s much harder on Germany specifically. And if we compare two strike aircraft… Let’s take the German Alpha Jet for example and a Russian Yak-38 which I also own. Yak-38 gets four missiles to defend itself or hunt other aircraft, while the Alpha Jet gets none. In Air RB, where you constantly face missile-armed opponents, the Yak-38 can actually fight back. The Alpha Jet can only run and pray its flares work. And even then, when I played the Yak-38 I fight almost no players with missiles it feels like.
That is EXACTLY what this is. Lets take a look at it for a moment.
The German Player Base is the only one capable of taking objectively strong and good vehicles like the Tigers and give them terribad win-rates
The same goes for the Panthers
I compare this to my own stats, and yes I do have a skill issue although my K/D would say otherwise but I am not going to circle jerk myself into saying I cannot carry a broken team. I have the tools to carry a team but not the skill to back it up.
I can’t really compare air battles, my only major experience there is with the British tree and I used a Premium to skip the German air-tree to 10.0. So I cannot say with certainty that its that bad but what I did see especially in Rank 6 was not nice to look at, then again the only plane that interests me in the German tree is the Mirage IIIS C70. But with my experience with ground RB, the average skill of German players at 5.0 to 9.0 is honestly terrible.
Around 9.0 the German and American teams switch places for who is arguably the least skilled player on average in War Thunder.
As I’ve said in the post, look at winrates above 7.7 not cherry-pick Panthers and Tigers as an example.
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Show me the stats. Statshark shows Germany’s win rate at 7.7+ is around ~45%, while USSR is almost 60%. That’s not “competitive”. If Germany is competitive, why the gap?
Popular premiums aren’t the problem — they’re a symptom. Players buy premiums because the tech tree has gaps. If the tree were balanced, people wouldn’t need to buy a Leopard 2A4M to have a competitive top-tier lineup. The popularity is a response to the problem, not the cause.
You’re doing exactly what I expected: dismissing everything with “skill issue” and “not nation specific” without engaging with the actual arguments.
Also, you can’t just cherry-pick the vehicles that have APFSDS and ignore the ones that don’t, at least not from the get go. That’s called artificially limiting vehicles. Even fully upgraded or premiums are a lot of the time. And no amount of “git gud” fixes a plane that got the short end of the stick in one nation’s tech tree specifically.
Of course I am going to use the Panthers and Tigers as an example. They are the poster child of what’s wrong with German teams. These are objectively strong tanks, strong enough that they can fight well above their BR and still do well. But German players would make these look bad.
Its the same story as with the Leopards. Exceptionally good tanks, but in the hands of a German player turns into an exercise of who’s eyes are are shut.
But since you want to go at it like that, here’s another perfect example.
The Turm III is arguably the best vehicle in its BR bracket. Fully stabilised with an auto-loader and 30mm auto-cannon that shreds anything with less than 50mm of armour.
There’s one major outlier, the Radkampfwagon 90
So good that even German players pull a 51% WR in it
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Well okay thats 1 example and trust me ive got no idea either why the Alpha jet is 9.0 in Air RB, probably because it gets a good amount of flares quite early in BR.
And again stuff like that happens in every tree, it really isnt Germany unique.
Sorry but thats just not true. Some of the most popular premiums are the Type 90 and the Click bait.Neither Japan nor the US have a gap at that BR. People buy premiums, because they want to quickly grind a tech tree. The 2A4M does have a gap at 12.0 thats true but the main problem of it is the fact that the US gets multiple 12.7 worthy Abrams at the same BR but that affects every tech tree, not just Germany.
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To be fair he’s talking about after 7.7.
US and russian teams are also about as equally terrible.
Germany does not suffer for lack of viable vehicles after 7.7, but win rate encompasses many individual factors that it alone does not tell the full story.
You’re better looking at kills per spawn and comparing it to other vehicles at the same BR.
Issue with german 7.7 is that it radically shifts from heavty tanks like king tigers to leopard 1. Most players cant handle the transition.
No? People buy premiums to get to top tier faster and have no prerequisites for buying. They ARE the problem.
2A4M isnt required to have a lineup.
Skill of a player translates how well they understand the game. It is geniune criticism. If you dont understand how the game works you cant possibly accurately describe the nuances behind it.
Stock state of a vehicle should never have impact on BR placement, period.
You could use actually learning how to play.
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Issue with german 7.7 is that it radically shifts from heavty tanks like king tigers to leopard 1. Most players cant handle the transition.
This is a very valid point. The shift from heavy armour to light armour + high mobility is a big one.
No doubt one contributing factor.
Mobility is definitely king.
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I mentioned above I had someone teach me and be a squadmate, us together we won a lot of games but a vast majority of them personal skill matters not, even if/when I get enough points for a nuke but our team still loses what does that tell you? I’d dare say it’s despite not because. Also, nice ad hominem.
I sincerely doubt that.
Its entirely valid to point out your assesment is wrong because you dont understand the subject. Saying Kontakt-1 is a threat is highly indicative of that.
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The ASSTA1 is better equipped than the GR1 in GRB given it has a better Tpod and GNSS weapons which I personally find far more reliable than SAL Weapons or even the PGMs.
WTD61/MFG are at 9.7 in GRB for a reason and perform identically to the guided version in ARB
Germany did not operate the Tornado ADV
The IDS (1995) does not have AGM-65s and is the weakest of the 3 (GR1, ASSTA1 and 1995) as it has by far the weakest tpod and does not have accesss to any other guided weapon than basic SAL Weapons.
Which is why its at 9.7 in GRB
No Tornado has AGM-65 in-game nor did any use them IRL
Which is why its 9.7 in GRB, and even then, the Tornado did not operate many stand-off weapons appropriate for any of the Tornados in-question. Their primary weapon for most of their service life was ungiuded bombs and CBUs. ARMs came later, and whilst I agree that the ASSTA1 should get AGM-88A, the WTD61 should not.
GR1 gets PGMs because they were trialed IRL, but I personally dont find them very reliable to use because of their slow speed, they are routinely intercepted. If the WTD61 recieved them though, it would move from 9.7 to 11.3.
Hu? It gets 56 Large Flares. The exact same loadout as ALL 7 Tornado IDS at 11.3. Only the RET8, SLE and GR4 get additional CMs.
Given the average at and around that BR is 60 standard total. 56 Large Flares and 1200 Large Chaff is one of the better CM counts
Its a Tornado. Though is artificially nerfed at the moment.
They do not.
ASSTA1 is the best one at 11.3 imo. But its a very slim margin between. If anything the GR1 is the worst because it is the only IDS out of 10? in-game that has the Mk101 engines for “reasons”.
So lets not make up facts to create a narrative.
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ASSTA1 is the best one at 11.3 imo. But its a very slim margin between. If anything the GR1 is the worst because it is the only IDS out of 10? in-game that has the Mk101 engines for “reasons”.
Unless you’re talking GRB. In which case it is peak.
I find that my PGMs never make it to target. So Id probably find I would prefer the GBU-54Bs over the PGMs tbh.
Would be good if we got ALARM though.