Why does Germany, Sweden, or Russia one just steam roll every Top tier match i get into?

[Thodin]

@Arellum

Subsonic jets with 40km ranged missiles are better than Supersonic jets with guided bombs that have to be in the actual game to drop their payload

My Tornado is getting nuked by Pantsirs every single time. Its just not possible to apply the GBU mechanic vs. ru SPAAs. How should this work? First you need to be close to the battlefield. Laserlock the target. Keep it locked all the time while the bomb slowly descends towards the target. Hold the lock, hold the lock…while Pantsir peppers you with 20km range missiles. This is just impossible to do. There’s not even a radar detection hole above, they always see you on screen and thats it. RWR also doesn’t work, cause the Pantsir is a up to date unit and the ingame Tornado is decades old.

And russian CAS? Shots from outside SPAA range F&F missiles. Lands reams, rinse and repeat. They don’t even need to leave the safety of their own airfield. Just taking off to get battlefield view and spamZoor the missiles. On some maps this is redicoulus.

I also don’t understand Gajin with this. They introduce all these Nato planes and model their systems, but you just can’t use those. Finally its not even economical to spend 850 spawn points for a jet which can be shot before it gets in strike range. Its just a waste of everything.

[AlvisWisla]

I want all tech trees in War Thunder to get SPAA superior to Pantsir; this has been needed since May of 2023.

Here’s a bad illustration of what I do in matches.
I go in at ~19km from target, 8.5 - 9.5km altitude, I turn in only after lasing the general area I want the bomb to land, I drop bomb then immediately turn away on a defeating course for all missiles thrown my way making sure not to go away from the battlefield, but stay further than ideally 13km.
Haven’t died at all to SPAA using this tactic.

It’s at most 5 minutes of flying, so I bring only enough fuel for 5 minutes of full afterburner.

Spoiler

I’ve also yet to die to an Su-25SM3 in a match, as my tanking is rather on point:
Don’t be seen.
Don’t be shot at.
Don’t be hit.

Applies to air and ground.

[DiamondCraftLP]

@AlvisWisla

no SPAA currently in game reaches more than 14km against jet targets

@AlvisWisla

Stat card range =/= jet range

While this is partly true, the stat card range is still proportional to the jet range. Which means, more stat card (straight line) range, the more range when you have to pull lead for jets. And the stat card range of the Pantsir being 8km or 66% higher than the VT-1 stat card range, it can therefore engage targets much further than any other SPAA currently in game.

@AlvisWisla

IR bombs

The Kh-38, the new and vastly superior missiles to other comparable missiles, comes in two variants. A laser guided one and a IR guided one. What makes these also interesting is that they also got IOG, which no other guided missile gets.
So the laser guided one can use the full range of 40km, while the IR-guided one has a lock range of 20km.

@AlvisWisla

2A5 and T-80BVM have their armor swapped hull and turret

BVM has ERA on its turrent, so turret shots are never guaranteed penetrations, whereas a hull shot of a 2A5 always pens.

@AlvisWisla

NATO defenders

I don’t quite get your defending of NATO.
So I am not defending NATO, if you want to call it that, by saying:

• NATO SPAAs are inferior to USSRs
• NATO CAS is inferior
• you all suffer from severe Skill issue if you cannot kill a Leopard tank

while you were downplaying the capabilities of the russian vehicles by saying NATO is way stronger. Which means you were defending Russia.
But anyways.

I also dare you to play top tier Germany (11.7) with a Su-25SM3 in trhe enemy team, hell make it 2 Su-25SM3.

@AlvisWisla

New SPAA is necessary in all ten tech trees to deal with the treats as all CAS exceeds the range of all SPAA

On that we agree. Nobody is saying anything against that.
Its just that the Pantsir is the only SPAA with that engagement-range, in a Tech tree that now also has CAS with the highest engagement range.
It is not per se that the Pantsir is too good, but rather that the other nations have no comparable SPAAs in the game currently.
That and the combination of the longest range SPAA with the longest range CAS in the same TechTree.

[AlvisWisla]

I want all tech trees in War Thunder to get SPAA superior to Pantsir; this has been needed since May of 2023.
I’m posting that at the front of all my posts this session.

Pantsir is the king of losers, all top SPAA being losers.
Being a king of losers is not a good position; and honestly all of the 11.7 SPAA [except maybe Pantsir, I’d have to determine balance attributes with new SPAA before coming to a conclusive opinion on that matter] should go to 11.3 IMO, and new SPAA replaces them for 12.3 - 12.7 with ground decompression.

NATO CAS being allegedly inferior of the immortal kings still makes them part of the immortal kings, unkillable to all SPAA.

I’ve already played against Su-25SM3s using Abrams, Leopard 2s, and Leclercs, none have shot at me, or if they have their missile hit a tree or building cause I was doing normal tank tactics, or I passed by a friendly/enemy corpse and that hot target swapped the IR guidance system.

Note, I have not played Soviet top BR since T-90M was released, thus I’ve exclusively faced them with the rare instance of them being on my team.

Having the longest range SPAA against helicopters means nothing when helicopter range is 9.8km for Rooivalk and Ka-52, and drones with an 8km range; again, Pantsir is the king of losers.

[Ghost_of_TelAviv]

@DiamondCraftLP

while the IR-guided one has a lock range of 20km.

I have never been able to lock something on that range, it’s most of the time 13-10km, which the maverick can also do btw., still far enough.
Also it’s very boring, was fun orbital striking the team for the first 50 time, but it gets old.

[SFmerc]

@Thodin

One to another. Look at the latest winrate chart. Which was calculated after the Leopard 2 spall nerf and the introduction of the 40km AGM. Russian WR went up to over 60% while all others going down…

What chart are you looking.
Only countries on 11.7-> having over 60% win is
Germany, France, China and Sweden.

WT Data Project

[DiamondCraftLP]

Coincidentially the same countries that don’t have 11.0, 11.3 premium tanks.

You can see a decrease in WR from the Leo trees by about 2 percent points by comparing before the spall nerf and after. USSR went up by about 1 percent point.

The only top tier country taht truly suffers is USA with a 37 - 42% winrate, followed by Britain, Italy and Israel with around 50 to 55% WR.
These tech trees have one thing in common: a 11.x premium.
The US tech tree is also attractive and popular with newer players so they tend to have more new players buying high rank premium tanks.

From this data I would say France and China are the best performing tech trees overall regarding the winrate.

[SFmerc]

Well, Fuji is on japan, but that thing is a beast,
And another intresting part to look on those charts is actually frags / Game per nation.
But on this topic I would take sweden and germany on own side over soviets.

[UNN_Daedalos]

@AlvisWisla

Laser guided GBUs that also out-range all SPAA in the game.

usual GBU can be dropped around 10 km from target in an optimistic scenario. Oh by the way, that optimistic scenario includes the attacking plane having to fly very high, good luck dodging any SAM once high, especially with GBUs strapped on the wing

With all that being said : 10 < 12, correct ?
Same for AS-30L, it has a 10km capped range. Correct ?

with this in mind, your statement above is incorrect, isn’t it ?

Now. regarding pantsir players… I mainly play france, and it appears since march, we are paired with russia way more than before, and… oh boy

When i play with them, they somehow don’t even fire at the f16 spamming mavericks at 10 clicks and guess who has to clean up the mess (intercepting all the mavs that is) to avoid lots of destruction in our team ? yeah you guessed it…

When i play against them… well a picture speaks a thousand words :

And it’s not like half our team was flying in CAS at that time, we had 1 heli, 2 CAS planes and 1 dude doing combat air patrol with 9Ms. And they somehow managed to lose 6 SPAAs (not counting the 2s6, stormer and 2s38 because i’m in a generous mood).
On POLAND of all maps, one of the maps where a radar can see quite far, even low flying planes…

Finally regarding the KH38 issue : 20 > 12 so SU25 outranges any spaa it can incounter, that’s basic maths really.

As for the rest, pantsir can also be outranged by latest mavericks and PGMs, but that would be forgetting a small detail : they go 2x to 2.5x time slower, and if the pantsir moves, PGMs will lose track, since they can only lock a tank at 12km, assuming there is a good contrast, which is never the case really.
As for mavericks, assuming they even manage to track (contrast issue again), they have all the time necessary to intercept it. Much more than for a KH38 anyway

[Zyranovos]

Top technology, the Strv 122B+ Is currently the best armored top tier MBT, Russia has bias (And the Pantsir), honestly, Germany isn’t that good at top tier, I mean, don’t get me wrong, the equipment is great, but without team support or backup, Germany is useless.

Shamming a 2A7V with a non-top-tier APFSDS, in one shot, doesn’t scream OP to me.

[DotSuffers]

@Zyranovos

Shamming a 2A7V with a non-top-tier APFSDS, in one shot, doesn’t scream OP to me.

well if gaijin would care a bit about fixing german tanks it would go a long way but they choose the other route, nerfing them
or giving them wrong stats on purpose

but its like some people said, sweden is the better germany

[AlvisWisla]

I fly at 8.5 - 9.5km altitude personally. Best defense against all SPAA in the game.
15+ km range, and of course, you can climb higher to get even more defense against all SPAA in the game if you’re using AGMs. Only bombs require a lower altitude after all.

All those Pantsirs, and none of them can hit a good CAS player; an image showcasing the futility of numbers when your SPAA isn’t good enough against CAS.

I’ve been stating for over a year now that we need SPAA better than Pantsir.

[UNN_Daedalos]

3 things

• you aren’t dropping a bomb at 15km if you are 9km high, that’s just not how ballistics works i’m afraid

• by going 9km high, you essentially become a flying brick, no matter the plane you are in. And that means even a low energy SAM can get you.

• the image shown in my previous message may need a bit more context :

2 pantsir died because they stayed here for a whole minute, never checked their map and got spawn killed. Moving out of spawn is SPAA 101, and yet they didn’t do it

1 pantsir allowed me to drop a BGL-1000 from 2 km by focusing his attention on a f-14 that was getting away.
Aside from the fact that you NEVER focus your attention to a cold plane when you can shoot down an offensive one, he somehow managed to miss 3 95ya6 on said f-14 in a range between 1.5 and 4 km…

1 pantsir got strafed by the f15 doing CAP (no comment)

1 died to a maverick launched by an a10 from 5km or so

the last one i’m not sure how he died

in all those scenarios, there is one common point : all planes were all well within range and easy to counter, but it seems like they never communicated (with the “air alert” for example) or focused their attention to the wrong threat each time.

[AlvisWisla]

Except zero SAMs in War Thunder have the range necessary against a mach 1 target at 9km altitude.
Even the Tornado IDS has enough turn speed to do an S maneuver bomb drop before a Pantsir missile comes anywhere close.

All of those anecdotes you posted mean nothing.
CAS is OP, new SPAA is necessary that’s better than Pantsir for ALL 10 tech trees.

Stop defending your precious Su-25SM3, Tornado, F-16, F-14B, Gripen, etc from the truth; they’ve been unkillable long enough.

[DotSuffers]

@AlvisWisla

Tornado

xDDDDDDDDDDD

[UNN_Daedalos]

@AlvisWisla

Except zero SAMs in War Thunder have the range necessary against a mach 1 target at 9km altitude.

We can’t agree if you refuse to acknowledge simple facts… I can count at least 5 SPAA that can reach that high.

@AlvisWisla

CAS is OP, new SPAA is necessary that’s better than Pantsir for ALL 10 tech trees.

On that one i agree…

@AlvisWisla

Su-25SM3, Tornado, F-16, F-14B, Gripen

I don’t own any of these vehicles, i mainly do CAS with the 2000D-R1. With this plane, it’s a 50/50 with any SPAA equipped with VT-1s or TORs. Against pantsir, no dice. The best thing i can do is go low and throw some laser ordonnance while doing a pop-up last minute, but it doesn’t always work.

Also if you could please stop pretending the tornado can do anything at 9km. The poor thing is already struggling to do anything on the deck, let alone up high in thin air. I almost feel bad shooting them down with vt-1s…

[AlvisWisla]

You cannot count that many SPAA cause there is no SPAA that can reach a 15km distance perpendicular target.

Against Pantsir, Mirage 2000DR1 physically cannot die unless the pilot wants to give the Pantsir a frag.

I guarantee you’d never frag me or any other good to amazing CAS player in WT with SPAA.
You’ve listed terrible CAS players that never learned how to play CAS before.

[UNN_Daedalos]

@AlvisWisla

You cannot count that many SPAA cause there is no SPAA that can reach a 15km distance perpendicular target.

For a target to be at an effective 15km range, that means there would need to be a 12km horizontal distance for a 9km high target.

A gbu can’t travel these 12kms because of a little thing called drag

[AlvisWisla]

GBUs travel 16+km in War Thunder, even out to 25km.
There’s a reason there’s an achievement that has you drop a GBU over 20km.

[KotisD]

On what server do you play?
In my games there is no point climbing since every game there is Mig 29 or SU 27/J-11 doing CAP duty just waiting to smoke me with R-27ER or ET