Most of the time, I’m playing to spade or grind, so that may be the difference here. I think the only time I actively try to be a team player is when the chat is filled with funny people or when I have a friend on and he’s suffering the Phantoms.
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This isn’t the case, though, or at least hasn’t been the case for the past 3-4 years that I’ve been playing. Although I assume not all of these have airspawn, but the list of most interceptors and strike aircraft are:
Germany:
- 6 interceptor, none of which from what I remember are terrible
- 14 strike aircraft, of which only a few are bad (i.e. the handling of a boat)
UK: 11 strike aircraft, of which all are good from what I understand
Japan:
- 8 interceptor, all of which have good handling
- 3 strike aircraft, all of which have good handling
USA:
- 6 interceptors, of which 4 of them are P-38s (and those being two pairs of nearly-copy-paste), and one of the remaining two faces jets 24/7
- 9 strike aircraft, of which only 4 are decent
I really wish planes that were interceptors actually got interceptor air spawns, like the P-47s and P-51s.
I guess that’s true, but some aircraft just have the climb rate to keep up even with a decent angle zoom and unless you have >2.0-2.5km before they can turn around they can still just spray at your general area and you’ll have to waste energy dodging bullets.
Ok, I don’t want to be that guy, but that’s about 40% of enemies at prop BRs.
Flying ring round the rosey only works for japanese planes, and even then you’re better off flying out-of-plane because your SEP means you’ll fall under best rate speed unless you’re in the a6m2 where the two line up decently. A6M5 for instance can indefinitely sustain a ~3.5G turn at 23 deg/s, but if you boost it to a ~4.5G turn you get 30 deg/s and bleed 10m/s sustaining that turn. Now, 10 m/s is not that hard to re-generate given unloaded energy generation is 20 m/s, but you’re still better off using the “tactical egg” rather than flat circle fighter.
This however does explains.
Jets have enough SEP to sit at their best rate speed.
Props require out-of-plane maneuvering to be used properly.
This also applies to the yak you mentioned.
Yaks have 2 regimes of best-performance:
Near-stall ease of control
300-500 km/h.
This image doesn’t convey the control stiffening at that rapidly sets in around 560-580ish IAS, but it’s indicative enough.
Contrast this with the F4U-4
And the Bf109F4
Notice how to gain best turn rate, you need to be bleeding speed significantly and you need to have high speed.
The above graphs were generated with instructor limit, without instructor rates go higher. They’re also not using flaps or gravity assists. Flaps and gravity assists (“Tactical Egg”) make a pretty massive difference.
The graphs also do not convey the impact of roll rate in a dogfight. Roll rate makes a massive impact as being able to change the direction of your turn quickly makes it possible to gain better position/geometry/pursuit curves (“Cut inside the turn” or “have more turning space”).
This video discusses the significance of roll rate in prop fights:
Imho u missed my point:
- Aircraft with IC/AS spawn are merging with enemy airfield spawn fighters at much higher altitudes - meaning they have the energy advantage and can dictate the fight.
- Therefore the team with the most fighters with IC/AS spawn is able to push enemy fighters low and/or prevent them from further gaining altitude and are therefore suited to cover own airfield spawn fighters with inferior climb rates.
- This works (ofc) only when IC/AS fighters are climbing with optimal climb speeds and ignore enemy bombers.
- So if the US dominated teams come in with 5 XP-50s and 2 P-61s they can keep the enemy team low and made the whole point “US airfield spawn fighters are totally outclimbed” pointless.
- The pure fact that US dominated teams manage to lose matches even if they climbed perfectly and rule at higher alt is based on their habit to go too early too low and over-commit to fights which throws their energy advantage away - or they simply focus on the wrong targets (bombers) and/or are unable to “read” a match as they often do not realize that 2-4 unspotted enemies with zero points are somewhere outclimbing them.
By adding strike aircraft into this equation the result remains (almost) unchanged as nobody forces airfield spawn fighters to fly towards the center of the map and accept a fight at unfavorable terms.
So if we keep some strike aircraft like the Wyverns (soon 4.7) and Fw 190 F-8s (5.0) aside the impact of strike aircraft is limited as the longer the match goes their forward airspawn advantage (at ~ 1.000 meters with ~ 350-400 kmph) vanishes completely.
Btw - i counted 11 US props with IC/AS spawn:
US:
IC P-38 (3 x TT - BR 3.3, 4.3, 4,7 plus 2 x Premium/event 5.0 + 4.3)
AS P-61 (TT 4.0 & prem BR 3.7)
IC XP-50 (untill removal)
IC F-82 (TT 5.3)
IC Fw 190 A-8 (prem 5.0)
IC F7F-1 (TT 6.3)
IC = Interceptor spawn
AS = Air superiority spawn
Neither of them was an interceptor. Besides that: Gaijin uses these air spawns mainly as balancing factors and not based on their irl roles.
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If that is the case you BnZ attack was not perfect as the enemies ability for a snapshot whilst extending is determined by the speed difference, his anticipated fight path whilst evading your shots and (ofc) your own flight path whilst extending. His climb rate is imho not relevant in this context. So if the enemy is able to shoot at you it is usually a combination of being too slow with your attack and wrong exit strategy.
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Your goal is always to put so much pressure with your high speed attack that the enemy is forced to bleed way more energy with evasive actions than you lose with your dive. So even if he can somehow dodge your bullet hail sooner or later he is forced to go lower in order to pick up the necessary speed in order to dodge the next attack. If you do this long enough he will run out of altitude…
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In my previous example from yesterday this incredible Ki-43 pilot (i watched the replay) evaded ~ 4.000 rounds of 0.50 cal ammo (we scored together just 3 or 4 hits on him) - an exceptional piece of defensive flying as he was able to dodge and kept his speed at around 350-400 kmph. Even with my own potato aim due to HOTAS usage all we could do was to keep him in a defensive position.
My statement was clearly aimed at pure turn fights; the planes i mentioned (the P-39, the P-39 A-5 and the F6F - except the 2.7 P-36) can BnZ these planes the whole day as they are all very slow.
Have a good one!
Even then you don’t want to do that all the time since you’ll be slow and both easy to kill and to run away from, especially in RB. I’ve found that you want to stay kinda parallel to your enemy as much as possible, both to keep them turning and thinking they can pull into you, and to stay in gun range.
japanese late props are legit tedious to fight, the number of times i thought i had an energy advantage over a ki 84 only for that thing to just pitch up into me while stalling, infuriating.
The Ki-84 is closer to a Yak or 109 in playstyle. By japanese standards it doesn’t turn that well.
yeah but it is pretty fast and keeps its energy surprisingly well, now i exclusively fight them in a horizontal, speaking of japanese planes, i started using the tree and the a6m’s are kind of boring lol, theyre so easy to use and people have zero clue on how to fight them
Were prop teams better back then? In general; yes
For some reason this thread fixated on U.S, on that front; it depends, a lot of their planes required teamwork to function smoothly and generally required a lot more time of target with only .50 cals. Give them something that can actually climb, still quite quick and turbolasers; say a full team of F8F-1B Bearcats and yeah U.S could win games consistently even on Hokkaido vs Griffon Spitfires.
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i think hatred of props cristallizes around US players because when you play with them youre forced to bring your A game since most will die without doing a single thing, and then youre in a 3v10.
Im pretty sure if gaijin introduced a nation ban list, most players would instantly ban US because theyre tired of how stupid they tend to be, but to be fair all Big Three TT players tend to be a bit slow in the head.
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Been playing since 2017, the game has gotten worse.
- Generally I don’t think that is the case when it comes to the planes the US gets with airspawn. I’ve played with the 4.7 P-38 (admittedly not fully-spaded) and I would still be at a lower altitude than most Russian and Japanese planes - most of which I assume did not have airspawn.
- Generally yes (?), but that’s just not the US (if you don’t factor in premiums, of which the premium interceptors are mostly copy-paste so no one really buys them).
- True, I assume most people don’t do it optimally, but the infamously bad US MEC and instructor code doesn’t help in that regard for most people.
- Not really, as that relies on having greater than a quarter of your team being in a premium and an eighth being in a significantly worse strike aircraft than those the P-61s will have to face.
- I agree with that, but it doesn’t really help that US planes are just below average at best unless you start prepping like you’re playing DCS. Even after that I don’t think they’re even a smidge above average, going off of my own experience and essentially no good CCs enjoying playing US planes outside of maybe a handful of aircraft. (My experience has been mostly in AAB since it provides more engagement opportunities and is just what I played the most until a year and a half ago, but now I’ve been playing more ARB where if you make one mistake you’ve got to wait 8-10 minutes to try at another engagement.)
The quick pace of games does make this advantage considerable, though, as they allow for steamrolling if done adequately.
I wasn’t counting premiums and was assuming that most of the strike/interceptor aircraft have airspawn, so my list was:
List
IC:
- P-38E (3.0 TT)
- P-38G-1 (3.3 TT)
- P-38J-15 (4.3 TT)
- P-38L-5-LO (4.7 TT)
- F-82 (5.3 TT)
- F7F-1 (6.3 TT)
SA: - A-20G-25 (2.7 TT)
- A-36 (2.7 TT)
- PBJ-1J (3.7 TT)
- PBJ-1H (3.7 TT)
- P-61C-1 (4.0 TT)
- A-26B-10 (5.0 TT)
- A-26B-50 (5.3 TT)
- AD-2 (5.7 TT)
- AD-4 (6.0 TT)
- AM-1 (5.7 TT)
And of the strike aircraft, I’d say only the A-36, P-61C-1, and maybe the 5.7 AD/AM are useful for non-bombing.
Their whole point was high-altitude interception of enemy fighters going after bombers, and the P-47s desperately need airspawn to be relevant in the first half or first two-thirds of a match.
The issue is that no amount of speed will get you 1.5-2km of separation before a plane can turn 90 degrees, and once they start shooting (and you would rather dodge than get hit by MGs/cannons that can actually do damage unlike 0.50 cals) you’ll be the one losing speed.
Then even if you’re climbing at a slight angle, if the enemy can keep enough energy to have nose authority (due to their climb rate) when you come back around they’ll still be able to at the very least make you decide whether to commit to a headon.
Which is where you’re the weakest in a BnZ-er?
Most will know to run away, but after that it’s just ??? and almost nobody tries to exploit your poor p/w.
Last time I fought a competent Zero it was me alone in the japanese 109, in a pacific map, against an american A6M2 (the irony lol) and a Spitfire Mk1 or 2.
I used my top speed and climb rate, I got above them, I killed both. Right at the end of the match after carrying my team, almost out of fuel, ammo, and time. I wish I had recorded it…
Me when I see good old US vs UK matchmaker in Hokkaido 💀
i killed a fucking wyvern in the a6m2 mod 11, that should tell you everything you need to know about the average player lmfao, i much prefer the ki 44 since you actually have a working engine and the guns are much better.
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Imho this points out significant changes in prop Air RB:
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The willingness of players to invest time for positioning is (almost) none existent. Topics like patience to wait for opportunities or tactical & strategic aspects (like target prioritization) before accepting (or even entering) a fight looks like relics from ancient times.
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Everybody seems to be in a hurry to get mission score and to end matches as fast as possible - totally ignoring basic things like that the majority of gained RP is based on time being alive and killing the last enemy or securing a ticket win is way more important than scoring the most kills.
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The game play looks often just like like a head-on simulator - and this is imho fully intended by gaijin. I mean alone the fact that repair cost increase if you stay alive for a longer time (or the whole match) is encouraging more reckless game play. So from a pure economic perspective those guys rushing in a Wyvern and enforce 2-3 head-on kills (and die) do everything right.
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On top of that: 16 vs 16 decreased the overall quality as just rookies and veterans (if they fly meta planes) are able to benefit from that. Rookies just have to find an even lesser experienced opponent whilst the vet in a meta prop can remain (almost) untouchable.
As the exchange about air spawns, BnZ & US planes looks rather off-topic a short reply behind a spoiler:
Summary
- When you use a 4.7 P-38 no enemy airfield spawn fighter is able to be on co-alt with you - just look up for optimal climb speeds.
- US premium interceptors: The XP-50 was 2-3 times for free in the war bonds shop - and the very rare P-38 K is (almost) unkillable.
- Idk what problems you have with MEC, the settings are not really complicated - you can fly a lot of them with infinite WEP settings without overheating.
- Facing 4 or 5 XP-50s and 1 or 2 P-61s is very common. The two P-61s have an air superiority spawn (=higher than IC) - whilst strike fighters have a forward air spawn. This means that the have a shorter distance to enemy bombers and less time to get to altitude.
- US fighters and their drawbacks were discussed in countless threads from every possible angle. Imho it is not productive to continue with this topic in this thread.
You got me - i forgot in my list the P-38E, so i have to correct my previous reply to 12 fighters with IC or AS spawn.
You mentioned P-51s and P-47s - no interceptors - just look up the definition. As written earlier - it depends on team composition and individual pilot skill to make them work. If the wt meta favors quick matches it depends on each player to select the “right” aircraft.
I have no idea why you want 1.5 - 2 km separation. For me this looks like an experience issue - meaning that we have different experiences. I recommend you to watch this replay:
Gaijin Entertainment - Single Sign On
You will see an outstanding Ki-43 pilot dodging at least 15 BnZ runs of 2 experienced pilots - he had imho no real gun solution on both of us - despite this insane plane turns on a dime.
No - if you enemy has no altitude left to pick up the necessary speed to dodge your bullets he is dead.
In order to show you an example of a totally failed BnZ attack - watch this replay:
Gaijin Entertainment - Single Sign On
At around 09:00 I dropped on a Chinese P-51 C and took in my air brake too early - i overshot with just a marginal speed difference - skill issue. I decided to pretend to run and turned back in for turn fight as my 8 ton SM 92 outturns any P-51. The pilot was decent, so it took my almost 3 minutes untill i killed him at 11:44.
But the rest of the match showed the lack of experience of the last 2 enemies - a B-17 and a P-51 A. The Mustang saw me (he had rearmed) and i flew towards my main airfield (as i saw his marker too). They were slightly behind in tickets and their B-17 (has not rearmed with bombs) tried to equalize their ticket disadvantage by playing gunship whilst the P-51 broke off at 15:35 (as he assumed i would need to repair/rearm) and decided to go for ground targets too.
Both were subsequently spotted by our ai planes and i killed the P-51 (20:02) whilst my Su-8 killed their B-17 a few seconds later. Game over.
Have a good one!
Lmfao wat.
I mean UK side was super easy game because US team is basically dumb like bombing P-47s.
I would say your teammate is still same from back then.
oh yeah lol, f8f’s turnfighting spitfires =P
and yeah prop teams will turn me into the joker, i stg
ok so im grinding japan and having fun because their props are braindead easy to use but MY GOD, the “”“people”“” i play with are legit completely braindead, they only know headons, and i have to clutch, EVERY MATCH, its exhausting and tedious, and fun 1v1s never happen because either some shitter teammate sniffs up my ass and tries to steal or i get 1v4’d and get sniffed, i cant wait to grind jets in all trees so I NEVER have to fly props again, fuck.
Little vent post because damn this sort of thing is tiring as hell!