War Thunder is pay to win

[RunaDacino]

@Dodo_Dud

OK, so lets assume that you could only buy as much crew skill as grinding that premium vehicle would have given you: Say you buy a rank 8 premium plane. If you did grind a free rank 8 plane, you would have earned 400.000 RP for it first. They could have given you 12.000 crew XP.
So if you buy a rank 8 (premium) plane, you would be allowed to buy or spend 12.000 crew XP.
Then you would have no advantage over someone who actually researched a rank 8 plane.
That would be OK for you?
You would also be allowed to place 400.000 RP on some other rank 7 or 8 plane of yours to proceed to ace. Because a free player would have received the same. You only saved the time he spend playing for it. You would have no advantage over him, or would you?

No, crew skills should not exist in the first place - at least for determining vehicle controls and performance and situational awareness. Crew skills to auto-repair or faster rearm after landed are fine.

Pilot A doing maneuver X should have the same results as pilot B doing maneuver X provided the circumstances are equal (same aircraft, same TAS, same altitude).

[Dodo_Dud]

@RunaDacino

No, crew skills should not exist in the first place

I rephrase slighty: Would that be “pay to progress” in your eyes? If not, why not?

[Josephs_Piano]

@An_Pigeon

Your crew is also substantially more durable with an aced crew BTW.

You not only can do all of the aformentioned points, but also will literally survive more hits.

In air battles G tolerance is a significant bonus - but the actual ability to stay alive when hit by bullets is relatively unimportant - perhaps you can survive a few more hits by rifle calibre or even HMG… but you are usually getting hit by multiples and/or cannons or ammo explosions - in which cases it is irrelevant.

@pooqich

an aced crew gives you such an insane advantage its incredible

i have a single ground vehicle aced - the italian sherman
the difference is WILD, it feels like cheating

Aced yes, but if you have an expert crew at level 30 it gives no where near the same advantages as say, an aced crew will at the same leel.

It is entirely somewhere near the same level ffs - the +2 increase on most stats to Ace is less than the increase from basic to Expert

What is insane is the increasingly hysterical insistence that crew levels give absolute advantages that always result in 100% wins - it’s just bravo sierra

[RunaDacino]

I do not see it as fixing the problem of:

Player A has played for 25/50/(+ace requirement) hours in vehicle A in Warthunder.
Player B has played lots of Il2:GB/DCS and then bought full crew skills in Warthunder.
Player C has played lots of Il2:GB/DCS but did NOT buy full crew skills in Warthunder.

A and B and C are all equally skilled 109 players. Or Mustang players. Or Focke-wulf players. Some plane that exists in all 3 games.

However, Player C is at a significant disadvantage to both A and B. A and B can indefinitely sustain 6.2G of turn while player C can only hold 4.5G indefinitely and stamina also makes exceeding the 6.2G (for instance: yoyos, scissors) far more survivable for A and B while C already loses their minimal stamina doing sustained turns at say, 5.5.

It remains pay to win as long as it alters vehicle operation.

In LoL, you “could” argue the runes were “pay to progress” in a similar vein, but without runes you were not competetive. Theoretically you couldn’t outright buy runes there, but you could buy currency that bought you runes which gave you a pretty severe edge against opponents. (ETA: The patch that removed the Rune system in favour of the new was “Runes Reforged” if you wanna look it up)

And focusing on Rank VIII is out of scope for my interests (I fly WW2 aircraft and like to use them in 1 vs 1 fights.)

[UnglaublicherUlk]

Maybe ppl like the Thread-Opener using his brain before writing so much nonsense. It’s ALL about Skill. And it doesn’t matter (maybe in Arcade) how much Crew-slots you have. Most of the Time, noobs write such Threads like this one. Noobs, they NEVER learn the Basics of this game.

[RunaDacino]

Alright. Grab a 109 F-4 in a crew slot with 0 XP and fight someone of equal level with 5/5 G limit/Stamina + expert.

Your opponent can sustain 5.9G indefinitely and can easily exceed that 5.9G for ages without ill effect.

You?

You do the first low yo-yo as an opener in the duel and your screen gets vignetted, causing you to lose your foe. Then your stick goes slack while in a scissor while your opponent retains perfect control.

“It’s all about skill.”

Bit hard to make use of skill if your plane behaves differently despite the same inputs.

[UnglaublicherUlk]

To grab a BF109 Crew with 0 XP is the most stupid move you can do. Training your Crew at low lvl is much easier than grab a plane thats out of your Crew-Range. As i wrote, learn the Basics and stop whining Warthunder is Pay2Win. I mean wtf, use your fu**ing brain before you do such stupid move.

[RunaDacino]

I am quite familiar with the basics of flying, thank you very much. Probably familiar with more advanced aspects of it as well.

To get a max Bf 109 F-4 crew takes 25 hours without premium, 50 hours with premium.

Bf 109 F-4 is touted as one of the primary aircraft to learn in ASB. It’s 4.0 - perfect BR!

Also the 3.0 C202EC has the same issues.

3.0. THREE POINT ZERO.

3.7 I-185 M-82 has the same issue.

4.0 P-51C has the same issue

3.7 J2M2 has the same issue.

3.7 F6F-5 has the same issue

3.3 F4U-1A has the same issue.

4.0 P-38J has a lessened issue because G-suits are a modification.

3.3 Re.2001CN has the same issue

3.3 Yak-1B has the same issue

3.7 P-63A5 has the same issue

4.0 La-5Fn has the same issue.

Literally any fighter aircraft that exists suffers if you fly it against an equally skilled player but don’t have max crew. Some suffer more (Yaks, Corsair/Hellcat, Mustang, 109s) than others (planes that are so slow they cant pull Gs or like being slow.)

Edited to add:

Also looked at a kill I did in my 109 G-6 my last match.

I pulled a 6G turn going from level flying into inverted and split-S to pounce an enemy in a BnZ attack. Bit on the aggressive end, but needed to be fast.

A level 0 crew has a max G limit of 4.5. Will likely vignette out if I did what I did with a level 0 crew (I remember moving from F4U-4 to 109 F-4 and constantly vignetting. Shame I didnt record back then). May even pass out.

With my 5/5 expert? zero ill effects.

[pooqich]

@Josephs_Piano

It is entirely somewhere near the same level ffs - the +2 increase on most stats to Ace is less than the increase from basic to Expert

except that +2 is unachievable without paying up or grinding tens (if not hundreds) of hours, whereas expert is just an sl fee

@Josephs_Piano

increasingly hysterical insistence that crew levels give absolute advantages

…they do not?
in GRB the advantages are

@Josephs_Piano

hysterical

you can literally survive more shots, this is very noticeable in tanks such as merkava, in which one of the turret crew is sitting far away from the others, resulting in a better postpen survival rate

you repair faster, which is OBVIOUSLY a flat advantage (do i even need to explain this?)

you DRIVE FASTER FFS, you literally get a mobility boost at all times

the reload times i don’t even need to explain

@UnglaublicherUlk

ALL about Skill.

right until you trade shots with a guy in the same vehicle and he just wins with no chance for you bc he has better crew

[Dodo_Dud]

@UnglaublicherUlk

To grab a BF109 Crew with 0 XP is the most stupid move you can do. Training your Crew at low lvl is much easier than grab a plane thats out of your Crew-Range.

I have already told him this:

Spoiler

@Dodo_Dud

I bought a new crew on december 27th 2025, 13:57, after I had received the chinese event vehicle:

I played the next two event stars with that crew. On the 29th at 20:54, the crew is here:

I had invested two afternoons and received two event stars. The crew can now expert rank 6 jets.

I continued the MIG-25 event with the crew and also started to grind the Gazelle. At the end of the event (after earning 6 event stars on jan 6th and the Gazelle), this is the crew:

I obviously reached crew level 10 during the first star. Your C202EC crew above is already at level 6.5, and has 73 crew xp leftover. It would have taken you 1-3 games to gain the missing crew xp to level up to 10. Then you would have an experted C202EC, which would already perform way better than what you use up in your video. It was your choice to use the C202EC prematurely. In my proceeding, I only used vehicles when I could expert them.

Here is the disadvantage of me having an absolute stock crew doing the first ever mission:

Spoiler

@Dodo_Dud

This is the very first game at 14:04, after I got killed. I didn’t feel disadvantaged. (I had an expert level 1 crew):

I only got 5 kills and 3 assists for 1 death. Obviously, I got owned by my bad crew.

[RunaDacino]

@Dodo_Dud

Here is the disadvantage of me having an absolute stock crew doing the first ever mission:

And I have linked my youtube channel with a significant number of my 1 vs 1 and and 1 vs 2 fights showing the need for being able to sustain 6G and escalate to 7-8G on demand without losing visibility or controls and what massive difference it makes for my fight outcomes.

My only lament is I didnt have my recording set-up done when my Bf 109 was new to give a comparison for 109 F-4 then and now.

But the F-4 vs Yak 3 dogfight is a pretty damn good example still:

1. I am at 3.5 km altitude with 602 km/H TAS. A black dot appears out of the cloud to my 2 o’clock position, intent on getting guns on.
2. I slam throttle, pull up sharply, push nose down to flip inverted then input ~40% stick for a ~45 degree turn after the yak. My load factor reaches 5.7G at 0:55 into my video.
3. At 01:03 I am still pulling 5.7G, 2777 meters and 639 km/h. I am currently going up into a vertical yoyo.
4. On top of my turn at 01:11, I experience only 3.6Gs (3282m, 439 km/h).
5. I perform a low yoyo at 01:17, experiencing 4.3G (2856, 528 km/h)
6. At 01:22 I unload, experiencing 0 Gs as I roll right (2608, 579 km/h)
7. I roll inverted at 01:25 and pull ~2/3 stick for another ~45 degree turn/low yoyo. I am pulling 6.7G (608 km/h, 2354 meters)
8. Just before 01:30, I am pulling 8.4Gs and start vignetting slightly (580 km/h, 1910 meter).
9. At 01:30, I unload to 6.6Gs and roll left, pulling UP.
10. At 01:32 I roll further left, having gained advantage on the yak-3. Yak-3 is diving, I put my nose into lag behind him for 5.8Gs (539 km/h, 2022)
11. At 01:34 I invert completely and increase Gs as the yak begins a split-S. 499 km/h, 2059 meters
12. At 01:40 my G loading increases to 7G, 545 km/h at 1534 meters
13. The yak eases at 01:43. 559 km/h, 1375 meters. I’m pulling 3.5Gs
14. The yak pulls hard again at 01:45. I’m pulling 5.4 Gs at 547 km/h, 1327 meters. I’m gaining angles.
15. Yak notices, immediately rolls and dives in a 45 degree angle at 01:57. Momentarily, I’m experiencing 0.8Gs a 544 km/h, 1049 meters
16. I go up slightly then invert to folow the yak at 02:04, pulling 6.6Gs, 523 km/h, 794 meters
17. By 02:07 I’m pulling 7.1G, 557 km/h, 448 meters.
18. By 02:10 I am pulling 8.5Gs as I initiate a low yoyo. 534 km/h, 283 meters
19. 02:15 I inititate high yoyo, reducing G-load to 5.1G (394 km/h, 550 meters)
20. 02:19 I’m doing a low-yoyo again at 418 km/h, 6.8G, 303 meters
21. 02:25 I’m doing a high-yoyo at 317 km/h, 3.6G, 400 meters
22. 02:31 I notice a third-party and unload to get space. I’m pulling -1.3Gs, 330 km/h, 364 meters
23. I go for a low-yoyo at 02:35. 370 km/h, 5.3G, 233 meters
24. At 02:37 I almost enter an accelerated stall, forcing me to ease up to 3.4G, 369 km/h, 114 meters.
25. Barely dodge head-on with third party at 02:45, go for some messy attempt at high yoyo as I get panicked - 319 km/h, 142 meters
26. I try to get guns on target on the first plane I see. Second plane finally shoots me down at 02:54

Vs my C202EC (a 3.0 plane!) that blacks out doing a single aggressive lead turn:

1. At 0:17 in the video, I initiate a hard right-hand turn to defend my friendly vs a Yak in c202EC (487 km/h, 243m, 3.1G)
2. At 0:18 I have hit 3.6G (485 km/h TAS, 234m)
3. At 0:19 I have hit 4.5G (486 km/h TAS, 214m)
4. At 0:19 still I have hit 6.1G (487 km/h TAS, 201m)
5. At 0:20 I have hit 6.5G (483 km/h TAS, 200m)
6. At 0:21 I have hit 7.1G (473 km/h TAS, 175m)
7. At 0:22 I eased to 6.4G (463 km/h TAS, 162m)
8. At 0:23 I have eased to 6.2G (450 km/h TAS, 149 m)
9. At 0:24 I sustain 6.2G (440 km/h TAS, 139 m)
10. At 0:25 I ease to 6.0G (435 km/h TAS, 135m). I AM STARTING TO VIGNETTE
11. At 0:26 I ease to 5.6G (425 km/h TAS, 119m). My screen is nearly blacked out
12. At the second half of 0:26 I lose control
13. At 0:27, my stick has gone slack and I dropped down to 4.2G
14. At 0:28 I’m flying straight (1.6G, 422 km/h, 115m)
15. At second half of 0:28 I regain control.
16. At 0:29 I return to 4.6G, (420 km/h, 112m)
17. At 0:30 I ease up to 3.6G (411 km/h, 121m)
18. At 0:31 I sustain 3.7G (401 km/h, 141m), I start firing
19. At 0:32 I missed and eased to 3.2G (395 km/h, 155m). I mainly eased up to make aiming easier (I always pull over-lead, start firing and ease up to walk the enemy into my shots when firing at high aspect since the nose blocks the enemy)
20. At 0:33 I pull lead again (3.7G, 385 km/h, 171m) and fire
21. 0:34 I’m trying to get my bead on the enemy messing with my rudder (3.3G, 378 km/h, 182 m)
22. I sustain under around 3.3-3.7G until 0:38 where I get a killshot and ease out (2.9G, 346 km/h, 205m)

“why are you flying so low?” Because it’s dark and you can’t see enemy planes except vs the sky and the objectives are at low altitude.

0:26:

0:28:

TLDR

My maxed 109F4 fight:

I’m living in the 6+G region for a full 3 minute long dogfight.

My C202EC fight:

I pull ~6G for 6 seconds, 5.6 for +1. I black out and lose control. If I was on the defensive, I’d have died right that moment. Alternatively, if I was doing a low-yoyo at low alt I’d have died as well and flown into the ground (like the Fw 190 did in my P-39 vs Fw 190 Il2:GB recordng).

[Dodo_Dud]

@RunaDacino

And I have linked my youtube channel with a significant number of my 1 vs 1 and and 1 vs 2 fights showing the need for being able to sustain 6G and escalate to 7-8G

You chose to go beyond your crews current abilty. I chose not to make that mistake.
Choices. Consequences.

[Loofah]

LMAO.
I chose not to spot a fully bushes up pay2winner, and I chose to get nuked by 120mm every 2s from SAV.
Choices, consequences.

I also chose for my Bf 109 F4 to be absolutely clowned upon by Pay2winnin’s Yak-3. Choices, consequences.

These 2 are as much choices as having way lower G-tolerance than aced crew pay2winner who can just go through 13G turn to smack me in his A6M5 going 750km/h (650 IAS) because I blacked out trying to get out of his guns.
I guess I chose to die this way. Choices, consequences.

I should have just not played War Tinder, this way I wouldn’t get … in the … by Snail
Choices, consequences.

[AlvisWisla]

Yak 3 is a tech tree vehicle.
SAV is worse than the other 3.7s in-game.
Bushes make targets easier to spot in foliage more times than not.

Also, getting crew skill is so easy in War Thunder my air only crew slots are level 100+ in their ground vehicles as well.

[UnglaublicherUlk]

And what exactly is now Pay2Win for you? If you’re stupid enough to play a Bf109 with a low Crewskill plus an Malus because you can’t upgrade your crew to expert so don’t wonder you have (nearly) no chance against other players. And you think you’re experienced? xD

Your statistic shows you have played 5(!) Planes more than 100 Times. That’s not a problem overall but PLEASE stop talking about Pay2Win facepalm

@Loofah

I also chose for my Bf 109 F4 to be absolutely clowned upon by Pay2winnin’s Yak-3. Choices, consequences.

I guess it’s less a Pay2Win-Player more a skill-problem. You have 14k Battles and want to tell me this game is Pay2Win? Come on…

[pooqich]

@UnglaublicherUlk

Your statistic shows you have played 5(!) Planes more than 100 Times.

this guy plays sim almost exclusively, matches can last hours there

[RunaDacino]

@UnglaublicherUlk

And what exactly is now Pay2Win for you? If you’re stupid enough to play a Bf109 with a low Crewskill plus an Malus because you can’t upgrade your crew to expert so don’t wonder you have (nearly) no chance against other players. And you think you’re experienced? xD

Your statistic shows you have played 5(!) Planes more than 100 Times. That’s not a problem overall but PLEASE stop talking about Pay2Win facepalm

It is literally pay to win for one player to have a paid advantage over another player.

Also, statistics. Two can play the game.

[pooqich]

@UnglaublicherUlk

You have 14k Battles and want to tell me this game is Pay2Win? Come on…

i have 22k and i do infact think that WT is P2W in some aspects

[pooqich]

@AlvisWisla

Yak 3 is a tech tree vehicle.

he was referring to the 4.0 Eremin’s yak-3

[RunaDacino]

25 hours with premium to get parity for EACH CREW SLOT.

25 hours.

What you can do with a maxed crew:

Every match where having a maxed crew allowed me to win when I would have passed out from descending spirals, yo-yos or scissors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArFP--YVSMw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnJ1yndurVc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-qwCSkWUu4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me3xM3YXsDs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsF9upnxak0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J9gbEgJJd0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_hkSVfCkfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUgSQ-XUdPc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxQ-yBmCxyc

3/3 crew:

Yak nearly passes out from entering defensive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oty22VkifXE

Meanwhile with a new crew:

Flying my C202EC is suffering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Lb8-zCVyw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WP6WBzfRF4

Also to your “number of games” claim.

Air simulator games last from 45 to 90 minutes usually. So, you can average each match to 60 minutes roughly.