War Thunder is pay to win

[Dodo_Dud]

@RunaDacino

Getting a plane to adequate level is not a “few” missions.

We have had this before. It won’t get right by repeating it.

I bought a new crew on december 27th 2025, 13:57, after I had received the chinese event vehicle:

I played the next two event stars with that crew. On the 29th at 20:54, the crew is here:

I had invested two afternoons and received two event stars. The crew can now expert rank 6 jets.

I continued the MIG-25 event with the crew and also started to grind the Gazelle. At the end of the event (after earning 6 event stars on jan 6th and the Gazelle), this is the crew:

I obviously reached crew level 10 during the first star. Your C202EC crew above is already at level 6.5, and has 73 crew xp leftover. It would have taken you 1-3 games to gain the missing crew xp to level up to 10. Then you would have an experted C202EC, which would already perform way better than what you use up in your video. It was your choice to use the C202EC prematurely. In my proceeding, I only used vehicles when I could expert them.

@RunaDacino

It’s also a competetive game.

This is the very first game at 14:04, after I got killed. I didn’t feel disadvantaged. (I had an expert level 1 crew):

[victor_viktor]

well my opinion is there is no wrong or right for buying the vehicles using money, but If they are playing too sh*t and I need to complain, if not, who cares right?

[RunaDacino]

@Dodo_Dud

This is the very first game at 14:04, after I got killed. I didn’t feel disadvantaged. (I had an expert level 1 crew):

That’s ARB.

Not ASB. ARB.

ARB gets WAY more RP per minute than ASB.

Arcade gets way more crew XP/RP. And more RP too.

@Dodo_Dud

I didn’t feel disadvantaged.

I’ve literally started tracking the load-factor my crews experience in dogfights at 3.0-5.7 using WTRTI and instant replay from OBS.

The amount of times I MUST pull 7G or even 8G to get guns on target is very high - even in BnZ contexts (like with my 3.7 I-185 (M-82) where diving on people and executing lead turns regularly involves those G-levels). I could keep my G lower but doing so: significantly extends turn radius, reduces turn rate, gives my opponent the ability to dive away and go defensive and disappear or reverse me.

And any time I MUST go defensive, I WILL be pulling constant 6-7G turns in form of: break turn, flat scissors, rolling scissors, defensive spirals. If I black out before my opponent does, I lose. If we both black out at the same time or I got greater crew skills - I tend to fairly consistently win the reversal (another question is if I can aim well enough to capitalize on it).

Oh, and a rushed expert is not adequate.

This is my I-185’s stats. It still blacks out doing maneuvers my P-38J or Bf 109 F-4 can pull without vignetting (and vignetting is very dangerous as I literally cannot track my enemy anymore). Granted, for the P-38J at least you have crew G-suits to justify it.

With a G-suit, my P-38 is equivalent to my 109F:

The amount I played said 109F4 (literally my most played plane in sim at 60 games, 142 kills, 112 deaths - probably amounting to about 55-65 hours of game time):

[Dodo_Dud]

@RunaDacino

Arcade gets way more crew XP/RP. And more RP too.

So play one event star or rank2 tasks in arcade or similar until you quickly reach the required crew level of 10. Then expert the C202 EC and sim on in it.
Reaching level 10 will take less time than creating the video and complaining here.

I only play air arcade these days if it saves me time. So I do air events in arcade, simply because I can get them done very quickly. That is why I decided to use the small prize to jumps start the next crew. Worked well.

The crew on Jan 2nd, 14:21. Next mission ace.

[RunaDacino]

@Dodo_Dud

So play one event star or rank2 tasks in arcade or similar until you quickly reach the required crew level of 10. Then expert the C202 EC and sim on in it.
Reaching level 10 will take less time than creating the video and complaining here.

I only play air arcade these days if it saves me time. So I do air events in arcade, simply because I can get them done very quickly. That is why I decided to use the small prize to jumps start the next crew. Worked well.

The crew on Jan 2nd, 14:21. Next mission ace.

I only want to fly planes in Air SB EC and air SB EC only.

[RunaDacino]

@Dodo_Dud

This is the very first game at 14:04, after I got killed. I didn’t feel disadvantaged. (I had an expert level 1 crew):

Compare:

Bf 109 F-4 in lag-pursuit of P-38, sitting on 7G with no ill effects:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_hkSVfCkfk

Bf 109 K-4 vs P-51 in defensive spirals and zoom climbs sitting on 7G with no ill effects

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArFP--YVSMw

vs

Yak-3 in lag-pursuit sitting on 7G (lag pursuit meaning my target was pulling harder) blacks-out while turning with Bf 109 F-4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKdRsAE8tGA

And note: the Yak-3 IS experted. Just not 5/5.

Imagine the shot opportunities if I had 5/5.

Imagine if the bf 109 was 2/2. Or didnt have expert.

Or if I only had the bare minimum needed to get expert.

[Dodo_Dud]

I don’t need to compare, I made a choice. My choice avoided your problems while they could not be mitigated. Your choice led you right into them, as you have ruled out the alternatives for yourself.
Your rigid outlook has a good solution: Invest 100 GE and have a crew that can expert rank III and has 3.5 as g-tolerance. For me, I fly a few missions in arcade instead.
The game gives both options.

[RunaDacino]

The yak is literally experted but still underperforms compared to the bf 109 F-4. Doing the same ridiculous things I do in my 109s is impossible in my yak despite: Expert, 3.5G/3 stamina.

Ideally all planes should perform as if Expert 0 G/0 Stamina - roughly comparable to Il2’s settings (able to sit on 4G for relatively long time, sitting on 5.5G is perilous but manageable. Spiking 8G leads to borderline G-LOC, 7G can be survived only as an instantenous turn that you need to rest after rather than pull constantly).

[QTip_44]

@Zyranovos

You can pay to progress further, faster

Or pay to expert crews instantly?
Doesn’t paying then give you advantage over other players by having a better crew? While they play against you trying to improve their lesser crew?

Same with mods on vehicles. You can pay to have a fully modded vehicle which will be better (give advantage) over other vehicles that are earning their upgrades as they play.

Getting crew/vehicle upgrades faster than your competition is literally “pay to win”.

[tokerstar]

I used to believe WT was just pay to progress

F16 NETZ mod is straight up pay to win
F18 paywall P sparrows too … i was wrong

[rainy2000]

Exactly.

Paying to get new vehicles would just be a form of pay-to-progress (each new vehicle is supposed to be as good as the previous vehicle when taking into account the BR increase said new vehicle would have).

Being able to pay to get a direct and objective upgrade to your tank (modifications, crew skills, bushes, ace crew) is just pay-to-win… even if you can technically get it for free (but that often takes a lot of time, especially for top tier vehicles).

[Dodo_Dud]

@QTip_44

Doesn’t paying then give you advantage over other players by having a better crew? While they play against you trying to improve their lesser crew?

That is up to them. I illustrated above that you can improve your crew without being at a disadvantage. If you rush things prematurely, well… that is a choice.

@QTip_44

Getting crew/vehicle upgrades faster than your competition is literally “pay to win”.

Or playing arcade… ;-)

[QTip_44]

@Dodo_Dud

That is up to them. I illustrated above that you can improve your crew without being at a disadvantage.

Up to whom?
Rushing? You are twisting things. Playing to upgrade your stock vehicle and low level crew is not “rushing”.

@Dodo_Dud

Or playing arcade… ;-)

You still start at 0 even in arcade.
So play a newly bought M4A1(76) W in arcade. You are given a crappy AP shot with no filler and no parts. And it’s slow as molasses. Then you encounter a fully upgraded Panther D or Su-85M each with a paid for crew. How you think that’s gonna go 9 times out of 10?

[Dodo_Dud]

@QTip_44

Up to whom?

Them:

@QTip_44

While they play against you trying to improve their lesser crew?

That is up to them. I illustrated above that you can improve your crew without being at a disadvantage.

@QTip_44

Rushing? You are twisting things. Playing to upgrade your stock vehicle and low level crew is not “rushing”.

If you use the crew in a vehicle and mode which your crew can’t yet handle, instead of vehicles and modes in which the crew already performs fine and earns great, well then you do rush things.

@QTip_44

You still start at 0 even in arcade.

No, you start at 1.5 in air crews and 1.0 in tanks.

@QTip_44

So play a newly bought M4A1(76) W in arcade.

You apparently didn’t read what I suggested above: You don’t use a level 1 crew with something it can’t handle, unless you want to suffer. You use a rank 1 vehicle and EXPERT it from the start. With that, your game experience in arcade will be fair enough. (See sample screen from the very first game above) When your crew reaches the required level for rank II (after just a few games), you can change horses. But you don’t play stuff you can’t expert (aside from choppers, they do OK in their mode). You wait until you can. Or (in case arcade is below you) you spend 100 GE to get your crew up and running.
And it isn’t theory, I demonstrated it above. From aircrew level 1 to level 55.

@QTip_44

Getting crew/vehicle upgrades faster than your competition is literally “pay to win”.

I do get the crew up faster than others here and I don’t pay for it. How is it PAY to win?

[QTip_44]

I’m not talking literal ZERO.

In arcade (after your reserve vehicles) you must upgrade - both the vehicles and the crew.
Buy a new vehicle - it is STOCK. Unless you pay, you have to earn the modules by playing with a vehicle that is more than likely, actually worse than the (lower BR) vehicle it replaced. because in most cases, stock vehicles absolutely suck - by design so … you are incented to PAY for immediate upgrades.

“Buyers” do not have this issue. They pay for immediate upgrades and start off with a fully functioning vehicle. They do not suffer the grind - they can start “winning” right away because they have an advantage over all the players that are grinding their new vehicles in battle - be it arcade or realistic. The “buyers” will experience more “winning” and earn more SL and RP per hour played than the non-buyers do until they are eventually on par.

Crews offer a similar experience. The crews take a lot longer to improve the further up the ranks you go. Takes a lot more playing to get from 3-out-of-5 to 4-out-of-5 (FOR EACH SKILL) than it did going from 1-out-of-5 to 2-out-of-5. paying for immediate crew skills helps you win sooner, and like the modules, allows you to earn more SL and RP because of $$.

You have made the mistake of assuming (pay-to-win) and (eventually earning the same upgrades and crew skills) are mutually exclusive. They are not. They both exist in the same game.

[Dodo_Dud]

You don’t quote any of my claims but make general claims and statements about a different issue (modules). If you want to play on a different field with different goal posts, that is is your choice. I stay here.
If you want to respond to what I said, you can quote me from above.
You also claim to know what I assume without quoting any evidence. But there is no point debating such claims if they obviously contradict the facts:

@QTip_44

You have made the mistake of assuming (pay-to-win) and (eventually earning the same upgrades and crew skills) are mutually exclusive. They are not. They both exist in the same game.

Please READ the discussion before you make such claims:

@Dodo_Dud

Invest 100 GE and have a crew that can expert rank III and has 3.5 as g-tolerance. For me, I fly a few missions in arcade instead.
The game gives both options.

[RunaDacino]

@Dodo_Dud

That is up to them. I illustrated above that you can improve your crew without being at a disadvantage. If you rush things prematurely, well… that is a choice.

3.0 Rank 3 plane.

“Rush things prematurely.”

Experted 3.5G/3.0Stamina rank III 4.7 Yak-3

“Rush things prematurely.”

I’m sorry for wanting to fly at the active SBEC BRs of 3.0-5.7 with my rank II and Rank III planes. I’m sorry for considering a 25/50 hour grind to have parity with others flying the yak-3/c202EC/bf109F4/P-51C/etc to be absurd.

Because it’s a 25/50 hour grind in SBEC to get 5/5.

2571 XP for G-resistance
2571 XP for Stamina

Sum 5142 XP. Which, 1 XP = 100 RP. Thus, 514 200 RP needed.

My Bf 109 F-4 in SB (136% RP modifier) earns 2000 RP without premium AT MOST for 1050 score in 15 minutes. This CANNOT BE EXCEEDED NO MATTER WHAT. If you kill 6 people? still 2000 RP. You kill 2 people? 2000 RP. It can however reduce to 1500 if you only get 1 kill in 15 minutes and 1080 if you only get 1 assist.

Now, if you make it back to base after the full 15 minutes land, you gain a RP gained/0.8x0.2 bonus. This is maximum 500 at 1050 score, and reduces to 270 at a single assist’s worth of score.

If I have premium, this doubles.

So - 4000 (5000 RP) for max income, 2700 with an assist.

Let’s go with premium account.

5000 RP for every 15 minutes played.

514 200 / 5000 = 102.84. As there’s no partial UA cycles, let’s round up to 103 cycles.

That’s 103 x 15 = 1545 minutes.

That’s 1545/60 = 25.75 hours.

You need 25.75 hours with a SINGLE nation and a SINGLE crew slot to have parity with my 109 F-4 in your own 109 F4 (or equivalent 136% RP aircraft) WITH A PREMIUM.

Without premium, it’s 51 hours.

With perfect play each 15 minute cycles.

I literally have premium rn.

It’s still a 25 hour grind to get my Fw190A4 on par with my Bf 109 F4/P-51C10.
A 25 hour grind to get my C202EC on par with my G.55 Sotto 0
A 25 hour grind to get my yak3/la-5Fn/I-185(M-92) on par with my 109F4/P-51C10
A 25 hour grind to get my Spitfire Mk V (rank II 3.7 plane) on par with my 109 F4/P-51C10.

[Dodo_Dud]

@RunaDacino

I literally have premium rn.

It’s still a 25 hour grind to get my Fw190A4 on par with my Bf 109 F4/P-51C10.

Again, this is really a “You” problem, because I wouldn’t need 25 hours for it. You want to do it at minimum wage in a job you like. I do it at a much higher wage at an easy job that I can do well while it gives me other things (like Mig-25) simultanously. Both are game options and both are our free choices. We make them and have to live with the consequences. The third option is to use a real job in which it takes minutes to have maxed crews. That is probably the most efficient option.

[Ion_492]

You can’t defend a mechanic that locks objective and significant advantages behind a 20-25 hour grind by saying “just get a job.”

As is, crew skills give advantages to those who pay, and that’s not fair.

[Dodo_Dud]

@Ion_492

You can’t defend a mechanic that locks objective and significant advantages behind a 20-25 hour grind by saying “just get a job.”

I don’t. I suggest a different approch within the game that achives way more in that time. (Which is documented above with pictures^^)