War Thunder is pay to win

I cannot think of any respectable PvP game, both F2P and Buy-to-Play or Subscribe-toPlay where your out-of-match account state has any impact on your in-match capabilities.

Different rosters? Sure. But those units in the roster have the same capability.
Paygating rosters, while possible to be done in a scummy way (release broken, then nerf) is fine.
Making units within the roster have different capabilities whether you pay or not (and 1 mil RP to get same capability is absurd)

League had such a mechanic (Rune pages) that was thankfully excised from existence. It was severely criticized for it while it existed. Now you get all runes at level 1, and only thing you can buy/unlock is more pre-set slots.

Maybe I don’t understand you right but, your account status has no influence on the match but your earnings.

CoD premium account earns more than non payed.
Payed clothing and gimmicks can help to camouflage you better.
Premium accounts has access to premium vehicles and weapons

WoT or WoWs have premium vehicles which gives you bretter earings and hell these vehicles have influence on the match play. See Tirpitz. Is a 70 bucks premium which is very OP.

So, one could call CoD, WoT, WoWs a Pay-2-win game too, based on your criterias

The basic concept of playing video games with a grinding part is either to invest time or money to progress. Nobody questions this.

This whole thread deals with the distinction of p2w or p2progress - and if you can actually buy advantages with money which are not available for f2p players.

Technically seen we had until last year even a p2play scenario - as gaijin became to greedy - so the players spending time AND money saw no real value of their investments as the progress was especially at higher tiers way below of rather reasonable player expectations.

Regarding your opinion about f2p:

  • F2P is the preferred appearance of games designed to earn money with kids. By choosing f2p they circumvent the entry barrier of a full price video game - to reach out to a larger audience; so the goal is to maximize income / revenues.

  • Approving payments /purchases of 4 x 30$ for your kid is way easier than approving 80-120 $ at once (= less questions), that’s why the market for video games designed to attract minors and earn money with mini- or micro transactions is the most important.

  • F2p mobile games are dominating the market compared to pc or console games as an additional entry barrier (PC or console) is not in place as everybody has a smartphone.

  • Therefore the games are designed to create demand for in-game purchases whilst playing them. So players unable or unwilling to spend money (and can not be motivated to change their mind) play no role. They produce also no costs as the scale effect in MMOs makes them not relevant. Those players fulfill 2 roles: 1. Filling lobbies and subsequently: 2. Increase the number of targets for paying customers.

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In Warthunder, you can purchase crew skills.

Crew skills take an enormous amount of time to unlock.

Getting maxed G/Stamina is 500K RP in RB/ASB. Keen vision and Awareness - things you’d assume to be irrelevant to ASB but apparently they determine render distances and cause planes to phase out of existence while hunting or even dogfighting - takes another 500K to max.

After maxing these and experting your crew (which might require more grinding as my rank VII plane takes a Crew level of 30 to expert, you can then begin working on acing it it. This takes…
F4U-4: 280K RP
F3H-2: 890K RP
F8E: 1,080K RP.

Now, by the time you unlock your first jet you likely have maxed your G/stamina, but that still leaves the acing (and the enormous SL cost of experting).

Take P-51-D5s. Rank 3 aircraft.
One is flown by a new player (or a veteran player starting america) ground either with premium acc or normal acc normally.
One is flown by someone who flew the P-51-D-5 for hundreds of battles (at minimum, using ASB rates and assuming it gives similar reward as Bf109F4 given similar RP modifier - 10% difference - ~2200 RP per 15 minute with landing - 320K/2.2k*15 /60= 36 hours)
One is flown by a new player who spent a bunch of golden eagles on crew XP and instant acing.

The second player’s 36 hours is equivalent to the third player who immediately bought it.

Taking the P-51-D5 and making a split S at 580 km/h TAS at 4 KM barometric altitude inflicts around 6-7 Gs from my WTRTI testing with “load factor” displayed.

The first guy flying the P-51D-5 has a “Peak G” of 4.5 without crew skills trained. I’ve a “veteran starting new nation” plane in form of my bf109F4 that has some crew skills trained. My Bf109F4 can sustain 4.8Gs unexpected, 5.4 with expert. This is level 2 G/Stamina. This is equivalent to ~70K RP. Notice how this is nowhere near the 500K total we need for the rest. Level 2.5G/stamina will cost 40K RP, level 3.0 (including the level 2.5 step) will cost 98K RP. Do you see the issue?

Now, my experted & maxed crew can sustain 5.9G. This took me 500K RP to get PLUS a pretty hefty SL tax (I can’t even afford to expert my F3H-2, F8U-2 and F8E because experting the F3H-2 costs 450K SL.).

With Ace, it goes up to 6.2 if I ever get it. For my F4U-4, it will be 280K RP and… ±10% RP as Bf109F4 which has data for me on hand, that’s going to be 280k/2.2k*15/60 = 31 hours. Of Flying nothing but the corsair and always getting at least 600 score and making it back to my runway and landing and thus never ever dying.

Now, is “0.3 G” a significant amount? On its own, no. With Stamina? Very much yes. Stamina makes a big difference for your maneuver when you exceed your max G. It gives you a lot of leeway to over-G and not pass out immediately.

Now back to the P-51-D5.

Our first guy engages another player, gets on their tail in a dive and their target inverts and makes a split S to lose them. Our first guy follows, since they are familiar with this maneuver and have zero issues following enemy aircraft doing this in their main nation (in my example: P-51 cannonstang being the plane I never had over-G issues doing split S chases as I can sustain 5.9G with a lot of stamina, while my Bf109F-4 can only sustain 5.4G). Our first guy passes out (but even before passing out, the screen turning black makes tracking their opponent much harder, if not borderline impossible. I don’t get vignettes at all in my experted max crew doing it in a G-suitless plane at the same Gs and time under G). Passing out, they proceed to fly straight and be helpless to fight back as their target loops around and either shoots them down, or simply finds a blindspot the first guy cannot find them in.

Second/third player: They execute the same maneuver and have zero hint of vignette and maintain control of their aircraft throughout the whole high-G turn using the exact same aircraft against the exact same opponent in the exact same circumstances.

Now, you might say “Well, second player never paid a dime!” and that’s true.
However, for the first player to be on par with the second player in terms of how their unit behaves in a pvp game, they must play that unit for… 500K/2.2K*15/60 = 56 hours, where each next step of improving the unit takes longer and longer. Getting to level 2 G/stamina only took 71K RP, getting to level 3 takes 98K RP on top of that. And we havn’t talked about the rendering being tied to this broken system at all yet! See previous calculations for how long that takes (it comes out around 9K/hour with generous up-rounding).

I’ve had a very recent match where crew skill came up. Was diving with an XP-50 at 600 km/H and the XP-50 suddenly pulled up and I pulled with them. My lvl 2 stam/g-force unexperted bf109F4 promptly blacked out while the XP-50 flew around unbothered.

In no respectable PvP game do you ever get this level of disparity.
My problem isn’t the blacking out. It’s that one player blacks out, the other doesn’t solely due to their account status outside a match (there’s no G-suit modification in this matchup to complicate things either)

MMOs are going out of their way to take the grind out of their PvP arenas and give characters participating either equal stats, or pre-made builds with pre-made equipment.

LoL got rid of its rune pages. It still retains premium access to roster which is fine as long as done properly.

AoE2:DE has premium rosters that perform the same regardless of who uses it the same way. MWO (at least in 2016) simply had premium rosters - same mech & loadout performed the same no matter who drove it.

TF2/Overwatch/Dota2/America’s Army variants/ have zero disparity beyond cosmetics.

Movie Battles 2 is Purchase to play and has zero “Out of match” impact on how you play in-match. Same for RO2, Insurgency. I’m bringing these up because you brought up CoD.

Darker and Darker has no out-of-match premium status affecting in-match performance.

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Ground battles are now (pay to win) mostly the implementation of more modules to tanks, they were fools who voted for that, they made the crew upgrade pay like the turret traverse speed and reload speed and increased the repair time if a vehicle is damaged now fires appear everywhere in the tank consuming each extinguisher and taking away time in battle, they also filled the menu and battle interface with indicators as if for disoriented children blocking your panoramic vision in RB battles you can’t clean or customize the battle interface in your own way cleaning or removing the capture point indicators or the useless radar compass in realistic air battles mistake of new users who don’t understand the balance and equilibrium that a game with AR, RB, and SB modes should have, please people who understand and played this game for years help improve it and not monetize it.

i know all of that.

I just adresses the free to play people who expect to have the same gaming experience as the people who are spending money.

Nothing grinds my gear more when i hear someone blaming other people who have spend money on this game.

NOTHING is free in this world, and if 70% of the playerbase don’t spend money, it’s the 30% who are savning the game.

So don’t effing blame people for spending money on the game, with out those people, there wouldn’t be a game.

BUT i do agree Gaijin have been rough lately and the prices are insane, but i guess its better to sell 1000 vehicles at insane prices than 10.000 at reasonable prices (in Gaijins world)

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Good - but why are you posting stuff like this:

  1. Gaming experience is related to the fun whilst playing the game. No serious person expects to have any form of comparable progress or income without premium products.

  2. The complains you are referring to are mainly based on the fact that most of the premium product users either progressed way too fast (so that the necessary skills to use them properly are not developed) or they simply have no clue how to use them. So it is from my pov a matter of skill and not money.

  3. If you would have really understood the concept of f2p you would have not written anything about saving the game. The game is designed for paying players and not for f2p players. So whilst f2p games have usually way lower ratios of non-paying players their ratio is irrelevant - and no paying player saves the game, they just fulfil their purpose.

  4. Same as claiming that without paying players there wouldn’t be a game. It was a conscious decision to use the f2p design approach (=trading the projected income of a full price game with half price updates vs the potentially higher income of f2p game with in-game purchases). So the duty of the devs is to provide enough demand for their products.

Here i agree.

No matter what mode or BR you play the value for money balance is getting worse every year. And the clear pattern that newly presented premium vehicles get nerfed after a certain period makes it rather pointless to invest money in significant quantity.

I have seen way to many people calling people out, calling them “pay to win” and stuff like that because they are in a premium vehicle, and not because of their skill, so my point still stand.

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Fair enough.

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It’s pay to have an advantage

I dont always pay attention to the level of tier, up or down(I know I should) but I do on occasion have a brilliant game getting 8 or more kills and nearly every time the sense of elation is later dumbed down by me reading the match report and getting the picture that I face tanks from a BR below on most occasions.So me me that up tier or down tier is the key not any kind of spending.
If you could buy a permanent down tier then that would be as close as you might get to P2W.
I have seen a 5BR Panther just sit and wait for the 4BR tanks to come at him and just hit them when they do and they just bounced off his front Armour, that was his game.He got 8.Same with a Tiger two at 5.7 who just went up the middle of Cargo port and did the same. 10 kills for no life lost.Hard to talk pay to win under those kinds of circumstances.Hard to talk balance at all when that is happening.

I just think people on this forum detach themselves from the actual game play and just start talking unrelated principle when they jump on here.
I only base my opinion on what I see and experience.
As a payer for years I find that the only thing that really helped in the game itself is map knowledge,watching replays and the down tier when it comes.

I wouldn’t agree completly with crew slots and backups, because you still need to know how to use the vehicles to have an advantage of it. On the other hand if you know how to you have more options to adapt to a certain situation.
Crew skills, yes definitly even it’s more of a minor advantage, it is still an advantage.
Bushes are a very underrated factor in my opinion. Being seen and remaining unseen is the very (maybe even the most) crutial factor at least RB (I haven’t played SB yet, but I think it’s the same there) and therefore bushes can make a hugh difference. For this reason bushes needs to be available for everyone or removed completly. The current solution with the battlepass is not really satisfying because you have to grind a lot. I can tell myself as I currently trying to grind the battlepass (Level 52 at the moment) if I wouldn’t have had vacation during december I wouldn’t have enough time to get there, because the tasks are often very difficult or specific to fulfill on a daily basis if you working a fulltime job in my opinion.

If the OP post is because they had a bad game or a bad streak it is understandable, the whole game just seems so annoying and broken.
Every aspect coding, matchmaking, BR system, balancing, all of it seems purpose built to annoy the hell out of people.
If this has changed over the years from games you purchased and played to the perpetually on-line set up with the monetization of every aspect of a game has made the experience worse then it is only going to get worse.

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Just a bit of FyI, gajin entertainment makes about $120 million a year. Their studio hired roughly 500 people. Even in half of that went to bills and other such things, that means each employee is clearing roughly $120,000 a year.

The median income just in the U.S. is only about $38,000 a year.

Remember this next time you see a premium vehicle for the price of a AAA game.

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Honestly, good on them if they are making that much, genuinely see no issues there. Given how popular a game WT is, that’s honestly a fairly good salary.

I just hope they treat their employees well :>

If WT is pay to win, why do all those premium players die like flies? They payed the most and yet…
Crew slots are designed to increase with time and gameplay. I have many crews/nations maxed and I usually pay just 100 GE at game start to get 1st 20ish levels
Backups you get thru playing
Crew slots 5 are enough. 3 tanks, 1 plane, 1 AA
Bushes sometimes help a bit, most ppl don’t use them

Yes, paying a bit will save you time and make it slightly easier
But you still have to win yourself
This is highly skill and luck based game
This does not qualify as pay to win game
high tier will remain unavailable if you refuse to buy premium time but mid tier are more fun anyways.
Overall, wt has successful business model
It’s a great game, it’s silly to expect giving nothing and requiring anything. Be happy by what you’ve got.

“it’s not pay to win unless you win every time” - the liar’s definition of pay to win

The real definition of pay to win is buying player power, which is exactly what WT is.

You can lie to yourself all you like, but this is what those terms mean.

I don’t get why the hopelessly lost fanboys can never admit what p2w is or how it applies to the games they play, but you see this sort of mindless dishonesty in the player base of every single f2p game.

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Someone having a different opinion of it does not make htem a liar

Certainly “buying player power” is what WT is, but if you think that means winning all the time then you seriously over-rate the skill/ability of the WT player base!!

You don’t have to be an a-hole when expressing your disagreement with someone.

image

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lol

You might want to read what i wrote again, because i specifically said that p2w DOES NOT MEAN WINNING ALL THE TIME.

Also:

“adhominems are against the rules”

immediately calls me an asshole

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Agreed, but this is how Gaijin makes their money and there not really going to do anything about it sadly. And there’s no point in making a post about it