They’re still P2W vehicles, someone still has to spend money on it. Just because you sell an item for GJN doesn’t mean that the vehicle isn’t P2W.
The game is balanced around the fact that a new player won’t start at rank 3 unless they bought a premium. Unlocking and spading rank 1 and 2 should give you enough crew XP to close the gap for the most important skills. If you chose to skip that grind and also skip straight to sim, well, your crews will obviously reflect that.
Let’s look at my china tree because I havn’t touched that one at all.
Let’s pick P-47D23RA as our goal aircraft.
RP to unlock rank 2: we need 6 vehicles and already own 2.
Ki-27 Otsu for 2900 RP (29 skill XP)
CW-21 for 4000 RP (40 skill XP)
I-16 for 2900 RP (29 skill XP)
I-153 m63 for 4000 RP (40 skill XP).
We have gained 138 skill XP unlocking rank 2.
RP to unlock rank 3: We need 6 aircraft
P-66 7900 (79)
p-40 9200 (92)
P-43 5300 (53)
I-16 t10 7900 (79)
i-16 t17 9200 (92)
A29 7900 (79)
474 skill xp.
Finally, we get P-47D23RA for 18K RP (180 crew XP).
Our final is 654 crew XP.
Adding up (22+64+110+160)x2 for G+stamina, we get 712 crew XP needed to get both G-tolerance and stamina to level 2. This is NOWHERE enough to even take an expert to compensate (only a level 4 crew at best and we need level 10). We can’t even afford to have both level 2 G and stamina.
Spading the P-47 takes 19.9K RP, so 199 crew XP. We go from 654 to 853 - enough to actually get the 712 we needed for level 2 in both G and stamina. To get 2.5, we need 215 more (712+215=920) - NOT enough. We still cannot expert our crew.
We pass out if we exceed 4.8G for 21 seconds (at least at sustained 5.5G without any significant spikes above or below 5.5).
Now, this is less of an issue for the P-47 as it’s not a turn fighter and has bad MER, but do the same for Bf109F4 or A6M3 or MkIX Spitfire - all aircraft with excellent retention known for doing a lot of turning for one reason or another.
Meanwhile my maxed american crew can casually sit at 5.5G without even a hint of greying out and only has to stop due to running out of altitude to maintain the 5.5G consistently (a 5 kilometer spiral)
And we still havn’t improved keen vision and awareness at all so we will see planes phase out of existence while looking at them.
Oh, and as a new player you want rank 3 planes. Rank 2 planes got terrible visibility, lack trim and got questionable gunsights. 3.0+ BR also feels way more popular than 1-3 for finding lobbies.
I mentioned using and spading rank 1 and 2 before moving on to rank 3. I have everything spaded at those tiers so I can’t tell you exactly how much crew XP each plane gives, but even the most sparse trees have 15-20 planes to use before moving on to rank 3, big nations have at least double.
Also, consider that most new players will start playing arcade first. Arcade gives more crew XP. Players jumping straight into sim are a minority.
Just because it’s a minority does not mean it does not happen.
Yesterday alone I had a game at 2.7-3.7 where I shot this guy down:
Another guy from the same screenshot:
Another name i can pick out from that screenshot of a cool moment is…
Why would these players go straight to ASB?
Their names all include @psn. Controller players. They seem to average around 2-3 hours of AAB, 2-3 hours of ARB. Likely this made them decide “not having mouse to aim with is putting me at a massive disadvantage” and went to play the mode where they’re on even footing.
And as said, rank 1/rank 2 planes are genuinely harder to fly than rank 3 ones due to cockpits, trim and gunsight (i hate telescopic gunsights).
I’m not saying it doesn’t. I’m saying you kinda have to go out your way compared to the average player for it to be a big issue. For example, I had the same problem with the Israel tree, but you’re expected to be a more or less experienced player before you start grinding that one. By that point you probably know you can farm crew experience in AB or Assault before heading into RB/SB.
I don’t know why we have to debate the truth a company has to earn money in order to run servers and pay wages?
So if I can - without paying money, just by playing - trade in a good vehicle in exchange for a far less usefull collectors item, this good vehicle isn’t exactly behind a paywall. After all, the other person usually spends his dollar on a non-P2W object that is just rare.
They do, but they’re also running a PvP game.
In a PvP game, you expect a unit you obtain to perform the same under the same circumstances used the exact same way by any player. The only difference in outcome should come down to player skill, teamwork and strategy.
It’s OK for there to be a premium roster. Even E-sports games do that (AOE2:DE with its DLC factions). It’s OK for there to be pay-to-progress (for unlocking NEW units to add to your roster) albeit in a reasonable manner (don’t do the thing LoL does where you release a new unit way over-tuned and OP then nerf it down a week or two later - letting those who bought it dominate and abuse it).
Hell, I’d even be cool with there being a pure DLC approach - you need to pay to unlock aircraft above Rank N (one time fee, reasonable) or to unlock more than X nations (you get 3 nations of any order, unlocking the rest costs a one time fee).
But the fact that the same plane can do 5.5G indefinitely while the other passes out after about 21 seconds doing the exact same maneuver is frankly absurd.
Exactly. I once played an event while I was on a resort island. The difference in internet was the biggest p2w I ever had. I never before aimed at the “kill 12 in a battle” challenge. There I routinely got it in the fist 1-2 missions. And I played on a 6 year old notebook. Rest assured, back home I checked, but it wasn’t the notebook. :-(
After this experience, I realized that no crew skill in the world can compensate for those netcode effects. If I wanted true p2w, I should have moved to that island. Would have been the first WT investment my wife would have readily approved…
What shall I say? After the experience above, I no longer do.
It is the crew that passes out… And that difference is absolutely realistic, as it isn’t the same crew.
Don’t get me wrong, it would be OK for me if crew skill could not be bought.
So you come on here calling everybody who dares to disagree with your view point a liar? That is odious. People are right to pull you up there ,it was a hope that people like you were in short supply on this forum guess not.You can express an opinion but you don’t need to be so juvenile especially when you offer no counter argument.
If you could pay for zero downtiers that would be a thing that would give you a huge advantage in every game and take up a huge amount of slack from being a poor player.
Nothing like that exists in War Thunder.I can tell you as somebody who purchased every trick there is that my stats would tell the story.
The likes up you love to stat shame so as the fully confessed “Pay to win” player look at my stats and point out the evidence of my huge advantage.If the like of you couldn’t scream P2W at every corner then you would be crying Russian bias or Chinese cheat or whatever you people have to do to justify the fact that you still cant get a handle on this game after playing so many times.
You cant define P2W so why even use the term? There is no accepted definition across the board other than it’s literal meaning which you pay and you win.If P2W is not that then the phenomena does not exits, period.
Unlucky bud ,most of last few posts on here are stating how I have left the game n disgust and you can see how many games I have played lately.
I would have loved the money I spent to equate in terms of success.
That was never the case.
Practice over time,Map knowledge ,huge luck and the mighty down tier is what cause my good games when I have them.The right vehicle on the right map with probably a poor opposition overall. Camo is as old as war itself and as for the other perks ,F2P veterans will have most of them so do you want those guys to lose everything as well?
If you can’t take what this game is about then leave.I have.
I’d consider pay to win as being able to but an advantage over others.
Crew skills are pay to win because they allow you to buy a direct advantage over other players with the same amount of RP investment.
I consider F2P for a number of years to be the same and at no cost so what now?
In fact we do have people calling for level 100 players to be banned form low tiers ,so that answers itself.Find me true equality in the free game and I might agree with you.
ace crew skills are free, just play. do not cost GE so not p2w
Hypothetically, if it took players millions of years to get aced crew for free, the game still wouldn’t be P2W by these standards.
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Getting the grind done by money (either buying a Prem or paying for mods) is the only advantage - but it is a real advantage having all hte mods done vs stock - I don’t think that is deniable - just ask yourself whether you prefer a spaded or stock vehicle and why that is.
Sorry if it wasn’t clear.
And yeah - beginners buying high tier prems and ruining their team is exactly what I was thinking of when I said he was overestimating the player base!
Can you even still get them for free? I’m talking as sets, not 1 single bush from an event
It’s a PVP game.
In a PvP game, one that’s respectable, one expects the same unit to behave the exact same way with the exact same outcomes if the same operations are performed under the same circumstances.
Same plane. Same initial conditions. Same inputs (within acceptable variance as demonstrated by the graphs).
VASTLY different outcomes.
Difference?
Either 400 golden eagles (roughly gives 4.5K skill points, as the plane already had little under 1K invested) or … we’ve got roughly 712 crew XP invested and need 5142 total, so 4430. Or 443 000 RP.
443 000 RP, 2200 RP per 15 minutes assuming perfect gameplay - 50 hours.
50 hours until the two planes are at parity or 500 golden eagles.
Can you look at someone straight in the face and claim having the ability to sustain 5.5G indefinitely versus someone who is yet to use that very aircraft for 50 hours and thus passes out after 21 seconds is NOT a massive advantage?
Because of crew skills, my F4U-4 technically turns better than all my turnfighters because my turnfighters pass out before they get lead on target.
In a PvP game, paying money should be about unlocking NEW EXCLUSIVE units to use in a roster (ergo - “DLC model” like AOE2:DE practices) and making it faster to obtain new units significantly (League of legends model) and cosmetics (that do not impact glance value). Units themselves should have no variance between whoever uses them outside of the user’s skill.
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And I would require the word “exclusive” in there. For instance, squad vehicles are imho no pay2win, despite being able to buy them and get an advantage over others that don’t own them.
So we are down to chess. Because your definition rules out randomness completely. There can be no duds in your games, no random bounces etc.
Part you’re missing.
AOE2:DE is a respectable PvP game. It has exclusive factions/units, but whatever faction/unit you use functions exactly the same regardless of whether you’re playing Japan with only the base game or have all the DLCs.
League of Legends used to have P2W on par with Crew Skills. It was called Rune Pages. You’re encouraged to investigate and discover the sheer amount of controversy such a mechanic had in a “E-sports” game. Rightfully, Riot removed it and made players have access to all runes at level 1 with only access to more pre-set configurations being tied to progression/payment.
Dota2 is epitome of e-sport/PvP. You get full roster, you get zero out-of-match influence over what happens in-match. In Dota2, people even consider skins that change the colour AND silhouette of heroes potentially P2W due to glance value being impacted, giving a minute advantage as the opponent needs a fraction longer to ID your unit. There was a whole drama over adding a hat cosmetic to a red hero as it made him similar to another.
Overwatch is another example of a functional PvP game. It has bad design choices made that killed it, but it was actually player-skill oriented.
Team fortress 2 has “either buy or unlock” equipment. That equipment functions the same regardless though. Whether you’re a orange box owner or some random f2p, your rocket launcher will behave the exact same.
Mech Warrior Online has exclusive units/loadouts that are only obtainable by paying. However, non-exclusive loadouts perform exactly the same regardless of who uses it, provided equal skill and circumstance.
FF14’s PvP arenas use pre-built characters and pre-generated equipment to eliminate Out-of-Match influence over player skill measurement.
GW2 follows the same trend.