Hypothetically, if it took players millions of years to get aced crew for free, the game still wouldn’t be P2W by these standards.
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Getting the grind done by money (either buying a Prem or paying for mods) is the only advantage - but it is a real advantage having all hte mods done vs stock - I don’t think that is deniable - just ask yourself whether you prefer a spaded or stock vehicle and why that is.
Sorry if it wasn’t clear.
And yeah - beginners buying high tier prems and ruining their team is exactly what I was thinking of when I said he was overestimating the player base!
Can you even still get them for free? I’m talking as sets, not 1 single bush from an event
It’s a PVP game.
In a PvP game, one that’s respectable, one expects the same unit to behave the exact same way with the exact same outcomes if the same operations are performed under the same circumstances.
Same plane. Same initial conditions. Same inputs (within acceptable variance as demonstrated by the graphs).
VASTLY different outcomes.
Difference?
Either 400 golden eagles (roughly gives 4.5K skill points, as the plane already had little under 1K invested) or … we’ve got roughly 712 crew XP invested and need 5142 total, so 4430. Or 443 000 RP.
443 000 RP, 2200 RP per 15 minutes assuming perfect gameplay - 50 hours.
50 hours until the two planes are at parity or 500 golden eagles.
Can you look at someone straight in the face and claim having the ability to sustain 5.5G indefinitely versus someone who is yet to use that very aircraft for 50 hours and thus passes out after 21 seconds is NOT a massive advantage?
Because of crew skills, my F4U-4 technically turns better than all my turnfighters because my turnfighters pass out before they get lead on target.
In a PvP game, paying money should be about unlocking NEW EXCLUSIVE units to use in a roster (ergo - “DLC model” like AOE2:DE practices) and making it faster to obtain new units significantly (League of legends model) and cosmetics (that do not impact glance value). Units themselves should have no variance between whoever uses them outside of the user’s skill.
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And I would require the word “exclusive” in there. For instance, squad vehicles are imho no pay2win, despite being able to buy them and get an advantage over others that don’t own them.
So we are down to chess. Because your definition rules out randomness completely. There can be no duds in your games, no random bounces etc.
Part you’re missing.
AOE2:DE is a respectable PvP game. It has exclusive factions/units, but whatever faction/unit you use functions exactly the same regardless of whether you’re playing Japan with only the base game or have all the DLCs.
League of Legends used to have P2W on par with Crew Skills. It was called Rune Pages. You’re encouraged to investigate and discover the sheer amount of controversy such a mechanic had in a “E-sports” game. Rightfully, Riot removed it and made players have access to all runes at level 1 with only access to more pre-set configurations being tied to progression/payment.
Dota2 is epitome of e-sport/PvP. You get full roster, you get zero out-of-match influence over what happens in-match. In Dota2, people even consider skins that change the colour AND silhouette of heroes potentially P2W due to glance value being impacted, giving a minute advantage as the opponent needs a fraction longer to ID your unit. There was a whole drama over adding a hat cosmetic to a red hero as it made him similar to another.
Overwatch is another example of a functional PvP game. It has bad design choices made that killed it, but it was actually player-skill oriented.
Team fortress 2 has “either buy or unlock” equipment. That equipment functions the same regardless though. Whether you’re a orange box owner or some random f2p, your rocket launcher will behave the exact same.
Mech Warrior Online has exclusive units/loadouts that are only obtainable by paying. However, non-exclusive loadouts perform exactly the same regardless of who uses it, provided equal skill and circumstance.
FF14’s PvP arenas use pre-built characters and pre-generated equipment to eliminate Out-of-Match influence over player skill measurement.
GW2 follows the same trend.
Absolutely, the permutations are endless and to expect equality ridiculous.
If I had of realised when I started this game that it was Console vs PC I may never have bothered but on X Box forums all you hear are complaints about it being cross platform as many are concerned about the obvious disadvantages of playing on a console against a player on PC.
So we can all whine about equality issue form the offset.Same with server availability etc
I dont think its fait to have somebody on a console who cant even achive basic flight physics against somebody on a PC where a mouse is reckoned to be better than a Joystick.
Then we can say ,well what about those who have a £3000 PC and full flight controls? What about an ex fighter pilot playing against an ex air cadet like me who flew tanks for a living?
There is no equality anywhere at any level and even two people entering the game as newbies at the same s may well have no parity whatsoever if one is on console and one on PC. Some countries are miles from a server.
You are lucky that you only have one thing to spend all your earned points on ,that being G as tanks have so many that could be an issue.Like I said I dont play air ,it bores me but I know I cant fly on X box ,in fact I can’t even do a loop which I can in a real plane. I know I cant fly on console well so I do as much CAS as I can get away with and leave it at that.
I could have cried about it or suck it up and I decided to accept it and press on. I think all things considered I got quite good.I am currently in a 6.7 French tank with no armour, no fire protection, no spare parts,firing potaotes at 7.7 US monsters and yes its damn bleak and progression is painful.
That is WarThunder so crack on with it, get your wallet out or say goodbye : )
That is all any of us can do and I am being told on here that it’s kids who are spending all the money so being young is no excuse it seems.If they can all buy packs then they can all buy a premium account or spend low amounts on a few crew skills to put on G suits.
Yes because spending tens of hours grinding an event vehicle worth $20 is definitely worth all that time you’d have to put in. Its not the problem that Gaijin is trying to make money its the fact they blatantly ignore unbalanced things within the game for a profit. Hell they probably could make more than enough money from premium time and the market place alone, people spend hundreds to literally get one vehicle and there are thousands of player that always have premium time up. Worst part is that they make the sales worse and worse as the years go by so people are more enticed to buy vehicles not on sale.
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You will always be in competition with such people that is my point.No level playing field anywhere.
1st:
This is something desirable.
PLAYER SKILL should matter in a PvP game. Now, SBMM would be ideal or at least a ranked mode to avoid situations where you stomp a lobby and it feels dirty, or situations where the enemy team is sitting above your airfield and farming planes taking off.
None the less, PLAYER SKILL meaning one player consistently outperforms another player either in a mirror match-up, or a fair assymetric match-up is a GOOD THING.
AAB/ARB are a mess using controller, yes.
However, one of the ASB streamers I watch consistently literally plays on an XBOX controller and does quite well. It does take configuration - the default settings are utterly horrid for controller, mouse joystick and real flightstick. Do note: Mouse joystick, not mouse aim. There’s a world of difference.
I do concede people with certain hardware have a out-of-match advantage that is not personal skill/strategy/teamwork (VR, head tracking). However, it is not something created by gaijin or the game itself, just a consequence of “flying a plane in first person and needing 3D awareness.” Their dedicated first person flight game, Aces of Thunder seems to seek to solve this by requiring VR by default.
This a legitimate issue and there should be better server availability for oceania/eastern asia.
This sounds like a control issue. New players coming into Full-real controls using Mouse joystick run into the same issue. For mouse joystick, the solution is to move from “simplified” (it keeps your plane level and max aileron input only gives 90 degree bank rather than inversion and pitching up is not allowed beyond some 80 degrees) to “standard.” This does mean Y axis becomes inverted.
For x-box controller, I imagine the issue has to be something similar or the instructor getting in the way if using it in RB.
ANYHOW
Player skill giving consistent advantage = Good.
Server location giving disadvantage = Not good.
Gaijin-developed and implemented features that favour one side even in a mirror match up = No respectable PvP game does this, not even freemium models (MWO, LoL).
Player hardware giving an advantage = Not ideal, but such does persist even in pinnacles of E-sport balancing like Dota 2. Furthermore, a lot of hardware differences can be compensated and equalized with proper set-up and mindful practice until that set-up feels second nature.
So you must surely support somebody who is a novice from ever being able to go up against a true expert as it’s unfair? A player of ten years against somebody on their first few games at 1 BR? Somebody in a fully modded tank or plane vs somebody who only just acquired one? Imbalance at F2P level.
Gaijin could simply say the same as I am saying.There is purposely ,no equality so what does it matter and they may also say that they feel the balance between p2p and f2p is about right in terms of fairness and also to encourage spending.
Dont forget they do want you to spend but they dont wish to ruin their own game.Bear in mind the last person I responded to had 11000 games under their belt so they hardly quit in a huff did they? Just come on here to moan and insult every paying player.
So WT is P2W but all these F2P people still stick around for years on end.
I accept you are a good and intelligent flyer with a passion for this area of the game.Are Gaijin asking too much for you to chuck in a bit to address the G suit issue?
If the game is bringing genuine happiness and filling in time for you then spending a bit on a past time is not a problem.Big difference between upping a few crew skills and spending $60 dollars on an virtual tank.
The money I spent on this game would have gone to the local bar if I had of gone out instead of staying in playing silly tank games so overall I can’t complain.Let me tell you ,I spent more early on when I was playing my worse.I play better now and I haven’t had Premium for a year.
Bushes mean nothing the moment you fire that gun anyway. I would take my money back on those tomorrow.I might pay $60 for a hack that gives me a full down tier every time because that would be pay to win but if we didn’t have stats who would know or care?
Maybe that is the issue,a fixation with how good our stats look over enjoying the game.
No, I am not missing it. Randomness means: if the same operation is performed under the same circumstances, you can get different results. (We don’t need to draw on any game here)
In what way is that different from grinding any other free vehicle in the game that you can’t sell? You should play for fun. If you don’t, you should reconsider your hobby.
I suspect that many people are not playing for fun but are defining their ego over ingame performance.
Yep, every second BP the warbond store has them. I maintain my warbonds to about 1500-2000 in prep for them being 2500-2800.
I agree 100%, crew plot and crew skill are extremely p2w mechanics, As if that wasn’t enough, if you remove the vehicle from one slot to another you have to pay for the training and specialization all over again.
This is one of the things that prevents War Thunder from being a competitive game, War Thunder just doesn’t have an e-sports scene stronger because of it.
Bruh, Do you know how much RP you need to upgrade your crew from specialist to ace in a top tier fighter?
1kk 350k rp, one million and 350 thousand research points…
Do you have any idea how much RP this is?
With 1kk 350k rp is rp equivalent to 1/4 of an entire nation (in the air), and all this for a single vehicle,
There is no way to have enough time to create all this RP before the next vehicle is released into the game and makes your previous one obsolete.
In the tanks part, this is even worse, because you have to assemble an entire line up.
Have you ever stopped to think that you leave certain gameplay/mechanics miserable for a long period of time, to frustrate the player or leave him exhausted with absurd grinding that makes the game seem like the myth of Sisfus, and all of this is done purposefully precisely to generate a sense of urgency, because being a free player you will never end the miserable gameplay in a timely manner to enjoy the game… and this design is p2w, there is no p2p, if you need to pay to progress in a timely manner and your success in the game depends on the progress, it is p2w.
p2p is the fancy way of saying that the game is p2w.
And for you to defend this in two ways, either you’ve already spent enough money on this game that you don’t want any changes because that would make your investment in vain and bring you immense frustration.
Or you are in some way one of the millions of people who are psychologically vulnerable to this type of predatory practices. (I’m not saying this as a demerit, this really exists and is exploited by game markets, especially gachas, I’m not saying this to offend you, I include myself in this group of people, I have been a victim of this many times).
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I couldn’t care less what people say about the game or what it is.
The definition that people are talking about is P2P not P2W. Use proper words.
Does it really matter what words are used?
Firstly, your argument is entirely about semantics. Might I remind you that definitions of words are often arbitrary and differ among who you ask? It is the same situation you are trying to describe here. P2W, P2P, still the same unfair mechanics you debate over while Gaijin dies of laughter in the background. At a certain point, it becomes meaningless; arguing for the sake of arguing.
Secondly, sources like Cambridge Dictionary don’t make the same distinction you do between these two terms. By its definition, P2W is simply paying to get an advantage. And an advantage that can be matched by time is an advantage nonetheless. Your definition is much more arbitrary and lacks authority.
It does.
Even if it did matter, it would still not be a central point of conversation. Regardless of your intentions, your posts only serve to redirect attention away from the issue at hand.
It is like seeing a starving man, and, instead of giving him food, you argue with him that what he really experiences is called “hunger” and not “starvation”.