While it definitely is a good indicator, it isn’t the only factor.
Someone could spawn camp and you’d be none the wiser.
Someone could stay in one spot and farm one kill, hide, and never die once.
That person would have a very high K/D but what would tell you that this is what’s happening is by looking at other factors, such as Win Rate (how much do they actually impact the match), Kills per Spawn (How many kills they’re getting per spawn), and Kills per Battle (How many kills they’re getting in total per battle).
If someone has a high KPS but low RPB (Respawn Per Battle), it means that they are mostly one-spawning and leaving if they do shit or do really well.
The better you play, the less likely you need to / should spawn in again, and so the lower your RPB would be, which is fine… but this also means that whoever is not getting a high enough KPS and still has that low RPB means they’re trying to min-max their stats / games.
Agreed.
True experience comes with playing a lot of the game, and playing it well.
If you can’t have / do both of them then you are not truly experienced at the game…
but generally playing well is largely dependent on how much you play.
I started war thunder as a washed up wot player, wot by comparison to war thunder is hyper competitive. So to me K/D always needs to be supported by strong evidence. In my estimation stat padding is obvious, and can be revealed under the slightest of scrutiny.
I don’t disagree with your premise about spawn camping or passive play however players who abuse the game in the manner you describe rarely perform better than average anyway. To spawn camp with any degree of success still requires a great deal of skill, timing, and map knowledge. While many players are offered to opprtunity to spawn camp through negligence of the enemy team or success of their own team, few players can consistently manufacture the circumstances for a successful spawn camp. I’m especially skeptical as to the success of the hidden passive sniper. Very few maps are large enough for anyone to hide, and no position is safe from retaliatory CAS.
I definitely get your point about certain playstyles skewing k/d however I still think a good K/D reliably predicts a skilled player. That said, I have not and am not conflating skilled player, with high winrate, good teamwork etc.
Agreed, there definitely is a certain skill set required to play such a playstyle, although I do not like the scummy / toxic practices that comes with it.
However, I do not think it’s the same skill set that other good players have that help them get kills.
They are separate and cannot just exchange playstyles and expect both to do well.
I believe the non-spawncamper skill set requires better experience and skill to master and do well than the spawncamper skill set.
True, but that also means that once they’re done spawn camping, they can go do CAS as well (often better than the person who CAS’d them).
I think high winrate can sometimes indicate a good player, but it definitely can often mean that they just squad up with other good players and stomp lobbies, especially at low tier.
Or play a high winrate nation, like Germany at Top Tier- then you’d want to take that into account and compare it with other players that only play Germany Top tier.
Determining a good player combines 3 factors. Win rate, K/D and choice of vehicle. Its much easier to farm large numbers of kills playing lower br tanks, so I dont wieght them as highly plus you have to consider if the player is a 4 man squadder or solo can factor in.
Many players will have higher K/D for example and have piss poor win rates. What does this tell us? He camps like a bot farming easy kills and does not understand how to win games. So I would say this player is trash, even though he has high k/d ect… You can do this for all three factors, at the end of the day watching a few games from the player is also very telling. But I agree with the person you are quoting that stats 99% of the time tell you everything you need to know about a players skill in the game. Bad players will never have good stats, and good players never have bad stats. Simple as.
I personally dont think that playstyles in war thunder exist or matter. The way you win games and get high scores requires you to play a certain way regardless of the nation and vehicle type you are using. We are talking about consistent results here, not one game where you pop off and then claim that this is normal. Camping/Agro/flanking ect that most people would consider a “playstyle” are just actions you need to shift between in order to win, doing only one of those will do nothing for you. This also comes back to the tanks you choose to use. Playing garbage tanks doesn’t make you a good player for having a few good games in them. A good player will be able to recognize when a tank is trash and then simply not use it because other vehicles are better for getting kills and winning the game.
Factual statement. WOT is a far more competitive game in all aspects, it also has a deep rooted skill culture where people actually try to improve, unlike war thunder where people either just chalk it up to “muh lucK” or “i play for fun.”
Agreed.
However, win rate is also affected by what nation / BR they play - which you seem to not take into account.
Having 20% winrate in USA top tier ground makes sense, but it doesn’t make sense if you play Germany Top Tier ground.
Same with having 60% win rate in USA top tier ground being impressive, but not impressive with Germany top tier ground.
Agreed.
Sure, but you may not have the time to watch each replay, especially basing your idea of their skill on those small samples of replays. What if they do shitty in those few replays you watched but do much better in other BRs, or other days?
It’s more important to see their performance in a broader sense (but not too broad), such as per month, rather than all-time or on a particular day or week.
Although, I do agree that replays can help with finding little things that good players do, like do they watch a corner with their third-person camera before peaking? Do they have good situational awareness / map positioning? etc.
Yes, but you need to learn and know how to use those statistics well to have an informed opinion on a person. K/D doesn’t say everything, neither do any of the other metrics, and I believe you understand that. Not even K/D, Win rate, and choice of vehicle alone can best describe or fill the entire picture of their ability to play well.
A generally better player trying to spade a bunch of vehicles may not have better stats than a worse player playing the same vehicle over and over again at a BR that they are comfortable with.
Everything can help mold the view you have on a player (albeit some more than others) - even the nations they play to the squadrons / friends they play or don’t play with.
Statistics tell the truth, but the way you interpret and view it can give you false information / assumption about a person.
For example:
These two graphs are true, but one depicts the data in a better light than the other.
Just depends on which you think is more useful.
Sure, but I can’t say the same with spawn camping.
You are not helping your team win by directly capturing the points and killing the targets around them or coming towards them.
You are indircetly helping your team win by making the enemy rage, lose them enough spawn points such that they cannot respawn again (in a position where it heavily favours the spawn camper and discredits the any skill of the enemy player(s)) and lets you stall enough time so that your team can capture the points and hold good positions for you.
Is that a way to get good stats and win games? Sure.
IS that scummy? I’d say so, even when spawn camping definitely can take skill and knowledge to perform effectively.
Yes.
Hence why good players still play good vehicles - because they’re fun and you can do very well with their already good skills.
In some way, yes, I agree.
However, the ‘luck’ / P2W based aspects of WOT (such as the gun bullet spread and ‘GOLD AMMO’) is way more apparent in that game than in WT.
You can be great at War Thunder and not rely on ‘muh luck’ or ‘I just play for fun’ aspects.
A good player playing top tier America wouldn’t have a 20% win rate, period. I do take that into account.
This is exactly what im looking for, do they now how to play period. Do they pubbie stare at people when confronted or do they try to outplay, how they try to outplay. ect ect… You can tell instantly if someone knows what they are doing by watching a a few of their replays.
Yes they 100% will, this isnt even debatable, even playing stock tanks a very good player will out preform a player who is bad in a spaded tank. It does hinder your max performance but that would even out over time and not be significant long term. Plus stats in a single tank are not the only thing were looking at here.
Not really relevant to this topic.
Not every map allows this, plus not every game allows you to.
I dont care about the ethics of this, spawn camping is part of the game, dont like it stop me. I never get spawn camped, you know why? Because i counter the common spawn camping lanes, why? Because its more important to stop your team leaving than it is to take a point 2 minutes in. You are correct that preventing spawn camping and getting angles on the opposing spawn is important but you cant win without capping points either.
WT is full of RNG, its just not in your face like WOT’s RNG is. Volumetric makes the game way way more RNG than wot. Also consider that in WOT if you miss a shot due to RNG its not really the end of the world for you or the player you are shooting. Whereas in WT if you get screwed by poor netcode or volumetric or 0 spall you are almost always dead. In WOT there is the FV4005 that can one shot you, WT is like every tank is a 4005 and if you have one single RNG issue you just die. Its much more advantageous for bad players, and they benefit from WT’s RNG and cheese much more.
Side not WOT does not have P2W, “gold ammo” has not been paid for real money in almost 15 years.
You always have some luck in everything you do, but the key to anything is consistency. Drew Brees threw 7 touchdowns in a single game, unimaginable performance, but is he the best quaterback of all time? No.
55% winrate for a player who mostly plays American Top Tier is move impressive than a player with a 55% winrate who mostly plays Germany Top Tier.
I think you can agree with that, and is what my point was trying to say.
Again, sure but you need to sometimes look at the bigger picture.
Small samples of games can tell you some stuff about how they play but not everything.
There’s a good reason why I said ‘better / worse’ and not ‘good’ / ‘bad’.
I 100% agree with this:
But that isn’t my point.
My point is that you can’t just only look at stats like Vehicles played, K/D and Winrate, and say they’re as good as one another / one is better than the other.
If someone only played 6.7, for example, and got really good at it, and has the same KPS, Winrate, K/D etc… as someone who is stock grinding and playing other BRs, then I would say the latter is the beter player.
We’re talking about how to determine a good player, and you stated that you only need 3 factors.
I believe you need most, if not all stats available, and be able to interpret them and how they influence one another to make a better assumption than just that. - not just take K/D, Vehicle choice, and Win rate at face value.
You did include squading up being a huge factor into one’s stats, but never did you mention about a vehicle’s nation / BR also affecting what percentage is reasonable for its win rate, nor stuff like KPS and KPB, which also can explain stuff like whether or not they like to one-spawn leave.
I can’t really agree with this.
If you learn where to aim, then you won’t really have that issue - other than in some strange circumstances.
Hmmm… should I shoot this obviously volumetric mess that is the forehead of the T-26E1-1 to kill the turret crew… or do I just shoot the turret cheeks?
Sure, I can see that.
Though again, there are ways to mitigate that issue.
As for WOT, they apparently have RNG pen values, RNG damage values (much more than WT), and RNG bullet spread (much more than WT).
I can’t say that WT has more RNG when there are those in WOT.
my point was that you can look at what that player plays and understand that they either pad low br or meta slave ect. So I guess it was a mistranslation.
Yeah no, you cant just learn to aim lulw. I know how to aim and I know its still a massive issue. The servers are terrible plus you play vrs players who are on high ping. All these things exacerbate the issue. My point overall was the consequences of getting shafted by rng are much higher in WT than wot and therefore is much more frustrating for the player.
Sure but the values are known and in the overall average not that significant. When I played in the WGL not a single match was ever decided by RNG it was always down to the better team. It was always the case that good players beat bad ones in that game. I won 23 straight 1v1 tournaments on faceit before losing. WT 100% has more impactful RNG.
Well, I haven’t really been fucked up by RNG volumetric other than when I screwed up my aim, or some funny stuff goes on with the barrels of tanks, and the breeches of things like the Panther and M26.
Everything else, I try to aim for giant flat weakspots that can’t impact how the volumetric shell is affected - and that has gotten me a long way.
Maybe, but I also don’t think you would lose that entire match based on RNG alone in a single match either.
I’ve played tons of squadron battles, and the better team almost always wins on merit, other than some skill issues like killing 3/4th of their ground team via Kh-29Ts, or landing the wrong way on the airfield, or shooting the breech of a KPZ-70 instead of shooting its cheeks.
Someone leaving after one death, no matter what amount of kills they got, is still better than someone going 0-3, 1-4, 1-5 or any variation thereof where people die more than once and get less kills.
A few issues with this. Gaijin does not limit new players to certain ranks or brs that they can purchase premiums in. In general, there are as many sub lvl 50 players at top tier in grb as there is at say 5.7. As long as this is not addressed, sealclubbing is literally present at every single br in game. I al also agaunst any limitations of any kind based on who can play what. I play the game, the way I want to. I do not care what others think, and unless they form part of Gaijin staff that can ban or otherwise block me from playing they should have ZERO impact on what brs, modes, vehicles or anything else I play.
I am not sure if this is not just a misunderstanding.
I replied to a guy who wanted to restrict access - and my answer was clear:
So we are on the same page.
If you read my post again:
I offered alternative ways for the fellow player which might be suited to solve his problem called “sealclubbing” with rather easy measures to make these low ranks less attractive for sweatloards and whole stat padder squads.
None of my suggestions included access limitations.
I mean there is a reason why the BR 1.3 BB-1 is the top scoring aircraft in Air RB (of all times) with 5.65 Kill per Battle (KpB) ratio (576 kills in 100 battle & just 37 plane losses) and is together with other aircraft (like the P-39 at 2.7) a preferred clubber aircraft.
So just by excluding Rank I & II from leaderbords regarding KpB or other stats like winrates would make them less attractive for those stat driven guys; this would have zero impact on economy topics.
What’s the point of respawning if you are getting spawncamped within the first 5 minutes?
It’s over anyways and as long as Gaijin is not willing to stop this, I will leave after my first death simply because any chanche to turn the match is gone and I am only losing precious silver lions due to repair costs. This might never had to be a problem if players would have a sense of sportsmanconduct, but because this is not the case I recommand not respawning as long as spawncamping is tolerated like now.
I would like to see an area around the spawns that makes you invulnerable as long as you don’t leave it with no time limit.
In the case of War Thunder the RNG is much worse than in WOT, since in War Thunder the fact that the game intentionally makes your bullet bounce, what it causes is that you get killed instantly, while in WOT they only do damage to you.
I think it largely depends on the vehicle you’re using and are facing.
There’s little to no problems with having a Gaijin moment (most of the time) when using a heavy tank (especially in a full downtier), but I can definitely see that being an issue when you’re in a light tank, for example.
People are saying that there are ways to prevent spawncamping, like disabling them from even getting to those advantageous places - so it’s up to you to deal with them and be able to respawn.
You need no degree in Quantum Mechanics to notice that wt is a plain shooter. If you play a mode with (almost) infinite respawns the key to win or rack up kills was always to camp enemy respawn areas - or to stay alive and kill enemies trying to camp your spawn.
I have no idea why you think that gaijin would have any intentions to stop spawn camping - the whole game play of AB and RB is optimized to enforce player engagements - on purpose, and not by accident.
when you see not less then 2 red dots on minimap near spawn you can just respawn and get up to 5 kills and all your costs will refund and actualy you will gain more ^^ sometimes leaving is the worst option if you only do it because of SL
