The F-5C at 11.0 is completely unfair

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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I don’t understand everyone’s hatred against the F-5C. I’ve been playing it since Jun 2022, and it is a mid aircraft at best. I’ve seen way too many people claiming it is somehow extremely OP and deserves the current 11.0 BR. Here are some of their reasons:

  1. Low heat signature. Duh? Obviously because it has weak ass engines.
  2. It has good guns. Ok… but they aren’t magic guns. You still have to aim like any other aircraft.
  3. Busted damage model? In the past, maybe, but not anymore. Also, in my experience, the rudder of the F-5C is extremely weak and breaks easily in head-ons, or when a missile explodes several meters away. The F-5C is uncontrollable without the rudder.
  4. Energy retention / High sustained turn rate. That is honestly its only strong point. But if we’re rating planes based on this factor alone, then the Mig15 should be at 12.0, because it is said to have the best turn rate of all jets (in DCS at least).

In contrast, here are some of the things this plane sucks at:

  1. Pathetic acceleration and top speed: This thing is slower than every aircraft it faces, with the exception of some strike aircraft. If you’ve ever flown the F-5C, you’ll know how frustrating it is to hopelessly watch jets scream by you and not being able to run anything down. The only option this thing has left is to prey on people already engaged in a dogfight, or bait someone into a dogfight.

  2. Dead weight missiles: 10G missiles that can only hit target that are: a) Flying straight, b) Not deploying flares or firing rockets, c) less than 2KM away, and d) Not speeding away. And the F-5C has a whole lot of TWO of them.
    The F-5C is at a BR where it constantly faces Magic 2s, Python 3s, 7Fs, R-24Rs and other deadly missiles.

  3. Completely outmatched in one circle: This is how majority of dogfights are fought in war thunder, and the F-5C sucks at it. 2-circle fights almost always end up being interrupted by a third-party because of the duration of the fight and the number of players in matches. So there goes the F-5C’s only advantage.

  4. Weak RWR: Cannot detect soviet radar missiles it faces. (I’m not sure if it still faces the R-3Rs after the BR change)

  5. No radar, no CCIP/CCRP for bombs or cannons or rockets.

Obviously, there are a lot more. But given what I already said, I think it shouldn’t be any higher than 10.7, if not lower. Especially when compared to other aircraft at the same (11.0) BR.

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(you) are a part of the reason

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Why do you think that? Is this because I bought it?

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no, the F-5C was hated for so long because it was highly competitive as a 10.3, often sucked up 9.3/9.7 aircraft which were basically shit out of luck fighting it (granted 10.3 was popular not just because of the F-5C), and for such a good light fighter platform it was basically only used as a bomb drone by lvl 16 timmy lmfao

The tech-tree R-3R carriers are 10.7 so yes you’ll face them (MiG-21MF and SMT)

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It was what 9.3-9.7 aircraft were, but better in nearly every way.

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Every aircraft gets down tiered and up tiered. You think it’s easy for the F-5C to face F4Ss, MLDs, and Mirage F1s, with those advanced SARH and IRCCM missiles? With the BR change, it will now face even more Mig23s.

There are some weak planes at 9.3, yes, mostly strike aircraft (Even these weak planes can outrun the F-5C.). But a lot of 9.3 fighters are competitive such as the Mig21s, F104s, even Mig19s.

I would like you to mention some 9.3 aircraft that are as much outclassed by the F-5C as it is by the MLD or the F4S or other 12.0 aircraft.

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They are such a pain because I don’t expect radar missiles at this BR and the RWR shows absolutely nothing about them.

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That’s completely not true in War Thunder.

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You should expect them, the R-3R has always been in the same BR bracket as the F-5C. Those missiles are also very easy to defeat - the missile itself has the same low agility as the R-3S/AIM-9B, and the MiG-21’s radar is weak, its easily tricked by ground clutter or chaff. Not being able to detect J-band on the RWR is a big drawback only if you try to fly in the high altitude zones where the R-3R is even usable.

It was relatively easier for the F-5C to fight them than the average 9.3 to fight the F-5C actually, at least from my personal experience. I haven’t played the F-5C since the BR change due to being away on vacation though, so I’ll certainly take a look once I’m home to game with it.

The vast majority of them were either flareless, subsonic, or some are both. The planes that can outrun the F-5C are the F-104A/C and the Lightning, and that’s the only advantage they get over the F-5C. The MiG-21F/J-7II has only 100 kmh in top speed over the F-5C, takes a decade to accelerate to it, and its armament is strongly lacking compare to the F-5C, that plane has never been very competitive in any means. The MiG-19 is definitely the strongest suited to fight the F-5C, because of its better TWR, acceleration and energy retention, but again, you’re flareless, you can’t actually break Mach at sea-level, the guns are harder to use on it, and (if you have missiles) are inferior to the F-5C’s. Remember, those are just three examples, most 9.3’s are shit like the F-100, F3H, Super Mystere, Su-7’s, not exactly great examples of competitive aircraft when facing the F-5C. Even 9.7’s on average get dogged on, F-4C (at least it can run away), J35A, Hunter F.6, Harriers and Yak-38s don’t really stand much of a chance against an F-5C generally.

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F5C against F14A is a big joke, like the Saab, weak missiles and bad engines.

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F-5C moving up to the same BR as the F-5E was a change that doesn’t add up. The F-5E is a straight upgrade to the F-5C. While the F-5C is a great dogfighter, good pilots can deal with them knowing the strengths and weaknesses of their aircraft and the enemy aircraft. I often clubbed F-5C jets while flying the Su 25 by simply managing my energy in a 2 circle rate fight.

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yeah F5C being the same br as F5E that is A HUGE improvement is just bs

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??? It can’t fight F-14s???

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I compared the F-5C and MiG21 PFM (I don’t own any MiG21) in test flight. Below 250m in level flight and with 50% fuel.

MiG21: Reached Mach 1 in 74 seconds. Top speed Mach 1.07 (1260kmph)
F-5C: Reached Mach 1 in 86 seconds. Top speed Mach 1.01 (1212kmph)

I assume the other Mig21s and the J-7II are not so different. It is clear that the MiGs are faster and have better acceleration. You can also simply compare the engine thrust of these aircraft. MiG21s have > 5000 kgf thrust compared to F-5Cs meagre ~ 2900 kgf.

It’s crazy that these light fighters, a whole 1.0 BR lower than the F-5C (now 1.7) have such a huge advantage of engine power. Yes, they bleed energy quickly, but they can also regain that energy much faster. They can simply dominate the F-5C in vertical fights and boom n zooms.

I haven’t used the R-3S, but from stats, it seems they have a lower top speed (1.7M) than the 9E (2.5M).
Doesn’t seem that much of a disadvantage, especially when both missiles are useless anyway.
As for the cannons, they have powerful cannons with less ammo. Seems like a trade-off rather than a disadvantage.

F-100 and F3H have advantage of missiles (4 9Es, AIM 7C at -1.0 BR). Super Mystere is at 9.0. Su7 is a strike aircraft that can easily dodge 9Es and run away from F-5C.

J35A is removed. Hunter, Harriers, and Yak38s still get better missiles along with other gimmicks, so again, not a huge disadvantage.

I think most of the issues stem from the assumption that every single aircraft will simply engage in a pure 1v1, 2 circle fight with the F-5C and the F-5C will win every single time. in realistic battles, that is simply not the case.

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Is the F-5C unfair against 9.3? Yeah maybe. There were a lot of similar issues due to BR compression.
But is it unfair against 9.7? NO. Because aircraft at 9.7 generally get better missiles if they have poor flight performance compared to F-5C.

The F-5C against 12.0, now that’s unfair.

Another issue is the MiG23ML/MLD at 11.7 while the F-4J/S are at 12.0. The F-4S and F-4J at the same BR is also a big joke.
I think the Mig23s should be at 12.0 if the F-5C is to remain at 11.0.

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This might be a toxic take, but i love seeing premiums getting nerfed to oblivion.

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BR is set depending on the income.
F-5C mostly grind bases. 1 base = 2,5 kills. High income.
F-5E doesn’t grind bases - too slow. Standard income.
Result:
F-5C and F-5E same BR.

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F-4 can grind bases. Mig-23MLD can’t

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Oh you are talking about the plane that could brainlessly out turn everyone of its tier that’s not a J7E (which I think is undertiered and will be raised in BR granted)
Again in this type of scenario I would always recommend you to play more plane than just the US one, and you’d realize how US aircraft are generally overpowered across the board, due to the underperforming players. Just because it WAS the same BR of Mig21MF does not means it was legitimate, F5C @10.3 was an OP plane and if anything this nerf came way too late.

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The GSh-23 also have inferior ballistics - lower velocity and being mounted underbelly means you have to lead a lot more than the 20mm on the F-5C. And while the 23mm does more damage, both guns fire so fast they put down roughly equal amounts of lead downrange (and you get two with more ammo in the F-5C instead of one with less ammo in the MiG-21). As for the 30mm armed MiG’s, the 30mm has good mounting and velocity, but significantly slower fire rate. M39 20mm is still the winner between the two

If you’ve used the AIM-9B, its virtually identical. The R-3S is reverse-engineered from the AIM-9B IRL. And ofc, the B is inferior to the E Sidewinder.

I own a bunch, I’ve flown them a bunch – this is my personal evaluation based on the pre-decompression meta

You could get away with more aggressive face-to-face combat with the F-5C than you could with equivalent BR MiG-21’s (back then, it was MF and SMT). The F-13 (9.3) and SPS-K (used to be 10.0 but now 9.7) are boned if they aren’t already flying faster than the F-5C and running away, they are terrible for any close-in fights due to flight performance. The SPS-K, at least, can carry countermeasures if you remove the gun, and carries better missiles, but it flies same as the PFM. The MiG-21S, on the other hand, has good flight performance that gives it a better chance in a knife-fight, but you can only use (four of) the basic R-3S/R.

MiG-21MF/SMT are the proper equals to the F-5C IMO. What the F-5C has in its performance as a close-in fighter, the MF/SMT has in its missile kit. R-60’s are agile but easy to flare off. MiG-21bis is the equal to the F-5E through this analogy.

Both the F3H and F-100 aren’t able to break Mach at sea level, have piss poor acceleration, and lack CM’s. The F-5C will outrun and outturn both. The AIM-7C’s on the Demon are a meme missile as well - easy to outmaneuver, easy to spoof with chaff if necessary, and the radar gets confused by ground-clutter. I will say that I forgot the S.M. was 9.0, and how fast the Su-7 can be in combat.

Absolutely not, I only draw on my actual experience flying all these aircraft from 9.3-11.0 BR’s for almost two years now. This includes every type of fight you’d normally see in a match. You can check my statcard - this isn’t a KD brag btw, some of my KDs are ugly lmfao. What makes the F-5C so good in a 1v1 also allows it to be very easy to use strategically, you simply get a wider range of targets you can pick off. This is one jet that I’ll say, often due to mistakes by the other side, I’ve won the most 1v2’s with from memory.

What gimmicks?

  • Hunter: The F.6 has SRAAMs that are easily flared, or you can simply outspeed them beyond 1.4 km, they have the shortest range of any missile in game. Beyond that, other variants of the Hunter at 9.3 have AIM-9E (Rhodie FGA.9) or AIM-9B (Swedish J34). Past that, you can both outrun and outturn the Hunter. At least the Swiss Mk.58 can put up a fight thanks to flares + AIM-9J.
  • Harriers: poor flight performance but - for the GR.3, AV-8A, AV-8C - flares + AIM-9G make them competent in a fight. The GR.1 is garbage though, it only has SRAAMs and no flares. None of them can break Mach unless high in the stratosphere.
  • Yak-38: Poor flight performance once again, also cannot break Mach at normal combat altitudes. Flareless, but equipped with four R-60’s, which are easily flared off.

It’s not fair, but the previous meta was more unfair to the 9.3’s. And I love my 9.3’s, I play them all as much as my other jets I have in higher and lower BR’s. Again, I’ve flown the F-5C a lot as well, which is why I know it can handle itself at that tier better than most these 9.3’s could against it.

Now, I will say that its unreasonable that F-5C = F-5E in BR, the E is just better in flight performance and weapons, the F-5E was a very easy stock grind for me when it was 10.7. Absolutely no justification for that.

And yes, put the MiG-23ML/MLA/MLD at 12.0, they should be equal to the F-4J, and in the previous meta, those MiG’s were already a full uptier for the F-5C (10.3 vs 11.3). Its an agreed upon fact that the BR’s are not optimal rn could be adjusted a bit further, and max cap could go even higher, but I’m glad it at least got an increase to 13.7.

Player efficiency and statistics to me seems to indicate (based on its stated role of being a fighter) that K/D plays a bigger part than just rewards earned

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