wrong.
109 was made by americans, chaparral was also made by americans, its literally an american chassis mouting american missiles (Aim-9s with improved seekers)
I agree with that, however here the differences are really minimal, the exterior model of the plane will remain the same, the same for the flight model and there will only be a change for the weaponry and the HUD (in the case of the Mirage 5). The NF-5A will be an almost perfect copy of an F5-E
For me a difference which makes an aircraft variant unique would be for example the evolution of the Spitfire, the Spitfire F mk24 is a unique model compared to the Spitfire mk1a, almost all the elements have changed, the engine is no longer the same , the flight controls are no longer the same, even visually the plane is slightly different
They were added at the same time, thus it’s equally valid to call the American ones copy-paste, thus it’s just smart not to.
The only one that wasn’t is Rochev which no other tech tree has that 3D model, on top of having a 50 cal.
theyre the original designers bruh, theyre not the ones copying.
and rochev is basically an M109A1 with a few visual differences
Nope, the Belgian (1970 and 1976) one also has a different nose-cone. The Belgian one looks different (including with the Raport II system). The ‘hull’ of the plane is also modified to fit these systems and is different from the export variant of the Mirage 5. These planes were also built in Belgian factories.
I’d call it unique.
It really isn’t, different wings for one. More missile racks for the other reason. (And it’s the Canadian design)
Also quite unique, but less visibly so, although it should handle differently from the US F-5A.
I understand you call the Mirage F1CT also not unique, same for the Mirage 2000-5F? Both already have a previous version in the game and both handle differently from these previous versions and have different weapon loadouts, radars and HUDs.
Then again, what is unique and what’s not can be easily made subjective. The game would be 90% or more non-unique very quickly if you hard-line uniqueness.
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Sadly I don’t really think that’s the reason they decided to potentially add the BeNeLux.
I think it’s more to attract more players to France, which is one of the least played nations in the game, with almost 300-times less players daily compared to the US or USSR. (source for daily player amounts: WT data Project)
I refer to my previous post:
Potential inclusion of Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg in the French Tech tree
How to correctly add subtrees.
I agree, as the core principle for gameplay this should be the case!
Where we will most likely disagree is on what is unique and what is not. But that’s what the forum is for. :D
I’d call that a variant
Still a variant for me
Yep, these are variants, not unique
My way of seeing things may limit the number of unique aircraft, I can understand that you don’t like it, but yours implies that any vehicle can be copied and pasted with a different name and would make a unique vehicle.
No, I consider those Copy&Paste. Definitely not unique. And I have never implied that just straight-up copying a plane from another nation into a new one is a good practice or would be called unique. However: Making a variant (or basically a new plane) by adding tons of modifications: changing engines, wings, cockpits, HUDS, radars, RWR, Countermeasures… These kind of actions warrant me to give these kind of planes the unique title.
Examples of actually Copy&Paste include:
The P-51C-11(NT) and the P-51C-10, which are actually carbon copies
Many P-47 export variants in Italy, France and UK.
The Mustang Mk.1A in UK which has its P-51 copy in the US.
Many a F-84F plane.
Examples of non-C&P (variants or unique) include:
M4A4 vs M4A4 (SA50)
AMX-32 105 vs AMX-32 120
Basically this is just what you want to call it:
- Unique?
- Variant?
- Copy & Paste?
The line between Copy&Pase versus Unique/Variant is clear. However the line between Variant and Unique can be drawn almost anywhere and differs wildly between country, historian or Defence analyst.
Personally I would be OK with Belgian/Dutch/Luxembourgh variants/unique planes and tanks being added to France as a Sub-Tree, but only if the independent BeNeLux would be impossible to happen. I also have no need for a Belgian Starfighter or F-84. But a r.36, NF-5A or a Mirage 5BA are definitely unique or variant enough to warrant being added to France in a sub-tree. (The Dutch Leopards are something else… They do have many modifications, but are visually quite the same to the German ones)
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I agree with this point, it’s a subjective idea, it will be difficult to reach a point of agreement
In fact I am not against the addition of the Benelux to France (contrary to what everyone seems to think). However, I don’t think adding vehicles like F-16s or Leopards to the French tree is a good idea (same for many post WWII vehicles). Since the start of the Cold War, France has had a policy of military independence in terms of vehicles; adding American, German and English designs would not be wise.
This is why the Mirage 5 does not bother me because it is a French design, however I am more resistant to the NF-5A because it is American but if you say that it is different why not
I can understand that you are Belgian and that you really want to have vehicles from your country but as a Frenchman I have to tell you that it would make me incredibly sad to see F-16s and Leopards in the branches of the French tree, especially when we know the number of French vehicles that could be in their place
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And that’s actually where I agree the most!
I also feel like France is the one nation in game where its Independence from foreign defence industries is exactly its strongest point (except for the 1950s-60s). I’m also sad that GJN decided to actually add Dutch vehicles (and to an extent Belgian ones too) into this very unique tech tree. Now France in game loses some of its frenchness.
Personally I hope all BeNeLux stuff would be in a separate tab or at least a separate column/line, so they don’t need to be researched to reach French top tier (Sadly in some other nation trees this isn’t the case anymore, like in italy or sweden. Only the SA subtree keeps this philosophy). This also in order to separate it in a way from the uniqueness that is the french TT.
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I really hope but given how the last two ranks of the tree were made (it’s nonsense), we risk being forced to search the entire Benelux tree
For the separate branch, this would be the minimum to do, otherwise the French tree loses all its meaning
Unfortunately, France was the last “small nation” in the game that was not full of foreign vehicles, with this addition it will be over
Agreed, France made so many different IFV’s, wheeled TD’s, etc. that would fit these BR’s perfectly. But they are still not here.
To name a few I know:
- AMX-10RC TML
- AMX-10RCR with the T40M turret
- AMX-10P or M with the HOT launcher (between 8.3 and 8.7)
- Sagaie II
- C variants of the AMX-30
All of these should be around the 9.0-11.0 BR I believe.
And maybe some Leclerc variants, but there are plenty in the TT already, so IDK.
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Currently there is a lack of 13 light tanks/IFVs that could complete these Brs,
- EBRC Jaguar (10.7 maybe a bit higher in Br)
- VBCI (1, 2, Phyloctete …) → between 9.3 and 10.7
- VEXTRA (105, POLE, …) → between 9.3 and 10.7
- …
Regarding the MBTs, there are improved variants of the AMX-30, 32 and 40.
And for the Leclercs, there are 6 pre-series variants with each one different turret and missing different variants entered into service
Mulet Système Complet → 10.0
Leclerc Ares → 10.7
Leclerc Bayard → 10.7
Leclerc Carnot → 10.7
Leclerc Duroc → 10.7
Leclerc Estienne → 10.7
Leclerc Foch → 10.7
Leclerc T4 → 11.7
Leclerc rénové XLR → 11.7
There are 4 Leclercs in the French tree compared to 14 Leopards in the German tree, I think it is possible to add more Leclercs without tiring the players
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France doesn’t need the Benelux subtree period since any vehicle added in the Benelux subtree there is either a French analogue to it that can be added or is already ingame
Also if France really needs a F-5, just add the Moroccan F-5’s instead which were upgraded by a French firm, SOGERMA more specifically
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Yeah, these are great!
These ones would be great for an Event vehicle. Sadly most event vehicles are either German, Russian or USA.
These should definitely go in the TT.
That might be an exaggeration. I wouldn’t call any Leopard 1 the same as a Leopard 2. It should be more fair to compare Leclerc with Leopard 2 and the AMX-30/32/40 variants with the Leopard 1 technologically and historically wise. (I’m writing it down, more for myself to have a good look at it that to change your argument)
Then it is.
4 Leclerc vs. 11 Leopard 2 (of which one is the Cup 2a5) in the TT. 6 of the Leopard tanks are like the Leclerc in terms of development line. For the rest: 1 is foreign. 3 are prototypes. 1 is a special event one that only 4 people have for the 2019 YT cup.
Germany is still very much more developed in MBT’s compared to France, but while France gets 4x 11.7 tanks to research, the German ones also have 4x 11.7 MBT’s to research (with one extra 11.7 if you’re a YT-er that won the 2019 cup). The gist of this is that Germany has far more 10.3-11.3 MBT’s that can fill more holes in a line-up if 4 11.7 MBT’s isn’t enough.
Maybe an extra Leclerc (or 5 more) won’t hurt. :) (Considering I grinded 8 Challengers after each other in the TT, I certainly won’t be bored.)
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Like I’ve said before in this thread and in here, I don’t think Gaijin sees the BeNeLux as a way to ‘fill up’ the Tech tree. I think it’s got more to do with the low playercount and them looking for more popular vehicles to put in the Tech Tree combined with the effect of more nations, which might mean that the FrenchTT player-base might increase more.
It might also be that the BeNeLux was easier to make models for than make ones for French vehicles. (Because a Dutch Leopard model was already made for the Finnish tree, as that one has several differences from a default 2A6. The same could also be said about the 2A4, as that one only has some internal changes for the IR scopes and screens + a MG switch.)
France really doesn’t for game-play reasons, but maybe it does for player-count ones. But here we are anyway. Upgrades of the Mirage like the Nouvelle Generation or the Mirage 50 would’ve been better. At least the dutch NF-5A is actually one of the more unique variants of the F-5’s we could possibly ever see in game (and not a simple copy&paste of a F-5A/E/C).
I’m personally really on the fence about the BeNeLux TT, but as new independent Tech Trees weren’t announced for any near future (only ‘new nations’), I’ll take this weird sub tree as the least bad option for the game (and I’ll hope they won’t screw the French TT over by integrating the SubTree too hard into the progression for each rank).
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You know the difference between unique and a variant right?
The M26 Pershing and M1A2 SEP3 Abrams use the same roadwheel pair design.
That doesn’t make the Abrams track system any less unique.
With all due respect, but that didn’t answer the rethorical question being asked.
Is it right that you see any variant as unique in-game? I’ve talked to you about this before, maybe this can clear some things.
TL;DR: you only distinct between Unique vs. C&P.
Variant is a word derived from variety, variety is itself unique.
Thus variants are unique.