Su-39\Su-25T Khod thermal imager six months of searching

Since the release of the Su-39 my heart has been warmed by this airplane. Incredibly beautiful, in many ways unique and with its own (largely undeservedly unfortunate) history.
The Su-39 (aka Su-25TM) was designed to be a multi-tasking aircraft in the shell of the Su-25 attack aircraft. It was required to be all-weather and capable of fighting off enemy aircraft.
To solve these problems, the Khod thermal imaging container, the Dagger millimeter radar, and the Kopye-25 3 centimeter radar were developed.
The first two systems were eventually not mass produced due to lack of funding during the collapse of the USSR and difficulties with components from now independent countries.
However, both “Khod” and “Kinzhal” were tested in 1993. I have studied many books, went personally to museums, wrote inquiries to them as well.

At this point I don’t think I’m learning anything new, so I’d like to explain why, with the scarcity of information about the Khod thermal imager, we have enough information to add it to the game.
The developers did not add this container, citing the fact that there is no certainty that it really existed, as well as the fact that some of its characteristics are unknown. I want to prove that we have enough information within the game (!).

  1. Did it really exist? Yes, in prototype form. This is evidenced by numerous photos at various exhibitions, and its flight tests are documented, as well as its result: “The thermal imager had problems with stabilization and image quality, so it was sent for revision”.
    The mockup cannot pass the flight test, which concluded with “poor image quality and stabilization problems”. This directly proves what a working prototype was. We also know exactly the date of the test, the airplane’s flight number, and the pilot. In addition, in some sources I found information about the range in which the thermal imager worked: 8-14 microns.

I have been communicating with Overscan, a well known researcher of military aircraft. And he also expressed his belief that the thermal imager was not a mockup, but a prototype.

Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot. Alexander Mladenov

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Штурмовик Су-25.Ильдар Бедретдинов

information on the range of operation of the thermal imager from the English version of the Bedretdinov Su-25 book

Overscan opinion

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At this stage I believe this is sufficient evidence to believe that the system existed, in addition to the dozens of photos I will attach at the end


  1. Do we know its characteristics to add it to the game? Yes. Now let me explain: to implement the container in the game, we need to know 3 parameters: viewing angles, zoom ratio and thermal imager quality. These are only indirectly known from the books. According to the sources, the Khod was mounted in the same way as the Mercury, which may indicate exactly the same viewing angles and zoom ratio. USSR already had 1st generation thermal imaging sensors, as they had already created Agave and Agave-2.
    You will say that this is not enough for gaming, but I will move on to the purely gaming characteristics of a thermal imager
    A) zoom ratio and angles of view of the thermal imager: they are not taken into account if there is a day view system (it is available on Su-25t and Su-39 in the form of Shkval). All helicopters, airplanes and tanks use the parameters of magnification and viewing angles from their day vision stations, not thermal imager, this has been repeatedly confirmed by the developers and you can check it yourself by comparing the viewing and approach angles on any helicopter, airplane, tank without and with thermal imager. They will coincide. Moreover, “Mercury” that Su-25T and Su-39 have works on the same angles of view and proximity as Shkval, ignoring their own.
    This all means that we already know the angles of view for the implementation of the Khod, as we know these parameters in the Shkval.
    B) Image quality of the thermal imager. Surprisingly, here too we know it within the game. The developers use the quality of the display in the cockpit of the helicopter/airplane to determine the quality of the thermal imager picture within the game. And we know the quality of screens in the cockpit of Su-25T and Su-39. They were IT-23M and later TV-109M. They had a resolution of 600 and 800 tvl. I can’t visually determine which tv indicator is installed in the cockpit of the Su-25T and Su-39 in the WT, but I suggest the worse option is IT-23M
    With online conversion we can convert that to the pixels we’re used to.
Characteristics of TV-indicators IT-23M and TV-109M

conversion table

image

600 tvl = 800 horizontal pixel
800 tvl = 1066 horizontal pixel

About TVL

Television lines - Wikipedia.

About convertation TVL to pixels

CCTV Tips TV Lines (Analog) vs Pixels (Digital Resolution) | Technology News

FLIR resolution in game
image

This may seem like a lot within the scope of the game, but you have to consider that the IT-23M and TV-109M are large screen sizes of 23 and 25 centimeters. You can imagine a 1024x768 or 800x600 image on such a large screen. In fact, the quality for humans will be lower.

However, this gives us a basis on which we can estimate the image quality of the thermal imager for the pilot. Taking the minimum and taking into account the large screen I think it is analogous to 500x300 for the game.

Conclusion

To summarize, I would like to say that I believe I have proven that within the game, because of its conventions, we know what the parameters of the Khod thermal imager will be. Even if we know its real angles of view and magnification, it won’t affect the game, in any case they will be like Shkval’s, like Mercury or any other helicopter/airplane/tank thermal imager.

All this research was done so that at least 1 USSR airplane could get a thermal imager. We have examples of thermal cameras at 9.7-10.3. I would like to see at least 1 thermal camera from the USSR before 12.7. Especially since from the game point of view we know its parameters.

Thanks for your attention.

Sources

Штурмовик Су-25.Ильдар Бедретдинов
Штурмовик Су-25 Грач. Виктор Марковский, Игорь Приходченко
Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot. Alexander Mladenov
Sukhoi ‘Frogfoot’ Su-25, Su-28 and Su-39
WEG 2016 Vol 2 Air and Air Defense Systems
Su-25 all variants. 4+ publication
Monografie Lonticze Su-25 Su-34. Piotr Butowski
Мировая авиация. 104

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@Smin1080p I would ask you to watch this “mini research” that I spent six months of my life researching information, talking to people, and traveling to museums.
I would like an answer - my arguments in the form that due to the conventions of the game most of the characteristics of thermal imaging cameras with a separate day camera are not taken into account, can be arguments for a bugreport designed as a proposal?

As a reminder, Mercury has the wrong view in the game, right now the Khod container is displayed in the game. I made a bug report a long time ago, but nobody looks at it
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/IPGXOB3OOCNl

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Very good work here, thank you for your effort.

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@InterFleet I know you as a very attentive and responsive staff member. Could you please give a comment on my research. I don’t want to waste my time writing all this text as a bug report if it is useless.

Can you confirm that the angles of view and zoom of thermal imaging scopes/night sights use these parameters from day sights, if any (any helicopter/airplane/tank). The closest example is Mercury on Su-25T and Su-39, I checked personally: angles and zoom are the same with and without it.

Similarly, I would like your comment about determining the quality of thermal imager by the screen in the cockpit (if it is known, otherwise other parameters are taken) . Can you check with the developer? This information was told to me by @MiG_23M, referring to the fact that he was informed about it by the developer

Shkval angles and zoom



=

Mercury angles and zoom



Its 100% equals

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It hasn’t been clear whether or not they are going off information about the thermals or the screen, however for bug reports on tank thermals they have used screen resolution as the determining factor.

Thank you. I believe that based on such rules, my text above fully defines the parameters of the thermal imager for Su-39

However, I’m really looking forward to hearing @InterFleet commentary

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I second that, it is insanely idiotic that the USSR does not have a single aircraft with thermal imaging, let alone infrared munitions with screen viewing.
Other nations have had this for a very long time.

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@_David_Bowie Maybe you can give a comment? As far as I remember, you were the one who talked about what principles apply to determining the zoom of helicopter sights.

Will you be able to suggest the information that I asked above and make your comment on this topic, please

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Magnification uses only the value of the daytime sight, value from Thermal/NVDs are not considered.

Do note that this was about to change this patch but was so far held back so I wouldn’t rely on it that match

Thanks, sir. Can you also comment on the choice of quality of thermal imaging cameras. Is the quality of the cockpit display really an advantage if it is known?

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I did a report with the info from this thread and all my sources
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/dhVGrPlRONxv

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obraz
pathetic

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I.e. I made enough arguments and the topic wasn’t even moved to acknowledged status?
Is he only expressing his opinion or what?

“I just want the USSR to be without thermal imaging.”

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its probably dev words i guess

In that case, he should move the report to acknowledged status to confirm that he agrees with the arguments and there are enough of them, but the developers just don’t want to




TrickZZter Gave me an answer on the Russian forum, I used a translator to send it here. Move is Khod because of translator’s mistake (in Russian Khod=Move).

So the developers opinion - they don’t want to add thermal imager for su-39 and su-25t. Apparently the ussr should not be able to fly at all in half of the matches when the weather is bad.

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Never played the SU39 or probably will, but I have to say, I have yet to come across a post I had more enjoyment reading.

Great job and effort :).

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So in effect they recognized that the facts I described allow for adding thermal imaging to the game, but they just don’t want to

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Thank you. My biggest disappointment is that when I called the Sukhoi OKB museum to come to them I was refused, saying that they only accept special guests. It’s as if they don’t care about ordinary people at all.

I asked for mail to ask a question, but even that was refused. They basically don’t care about their history.

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I created a suggestion on the Ru forum, where I listed the airplanes with thermal imagers. Please vote. It’s the least I can do.

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