Statshark in-game overlay?

[Lauri_Heino]

Sure, you could, but by that time the match is well underway, if not over.
Therefore, it doesn’t actually end up affecting your (or more importantly, those people’s) in-match decisions.

Again, I’m not opposed to this idea overall, but the stipulations I posted here would be required.
@bvr you think that’s something Statshark would be interested in contemplating?

@Beeschurger

with all respect where did i even imply that?

Now, I know you didn’t imply that - but for every one of you that would use it for “good”, you have 10 that will do exactly as Doctor mentioned.
We both know this community.

[Lauri_Heino]

Honestly, I think we need official Gaijin input on this, so they can decide what kinds of rules this tool should be abiding by.

[bvr]

@Lauri Heino

you think that’s something Statshark would be interested in contemplating?

no idea. you can comment on that reddit post or give feedback yourself on their discord channel

[Beeschurger]

@Lauri Heino

Sure, you could, but by that time the match is well underway, if not over.

yes, indeed. thats why such overlay would just make the process quicker.

@Lauri Heino

but the stipulations I posted here would be required.

Ultimately these stipulations are kinda pointless seeing as Statshark team already has live beta of the thing going on, but for the sake of the argument, I will adress them anyway.

1.1 is not what i would want from such overlay. sure it would be good enough for some sort of data gathering, but its kinda pointless to show the info I want to see at the start of the game AFTER it ends.
1.2 that would just not work and make whole overlay pointless. Assuming it would display both teams, why would I show the enemy team my stats without getting any such intel in return? And, if it was friendlies only, whole point of such overlay is to make qualified decision based on complete set of data, not only what one or two players would show.
1.3 again, kinda pointless to show the info I want to see at the start of the game mid-game. Initial tactics are precisely the reason I want such overlay. Players would barely have time to check it mid game; overall tactic is decided at the start and then adjusted in the middle.
2.1 eh, sure.
2.2 again, that would make the whole overlay pointless. might as well roll the dice at this point.
3.1 eh, sure. As DudesRug mentioned, figuring out the enemy team is half the fun.
4.1 Assuming you cant see enemy team in the first place, stat sniping would be pointless. Also you can make as much rules as you want, but you will have no way of enforcing them.
4.2 whole point of the overlay is that it would be optional in the first place. If you dont want to be distracted by it, you will not dowload it. no reason to waste resources implementing feature no one would use.
4.3 that frankly doesnt make sense as overlay isnt supposed to be hard baked into the game itself by gaijin, its supposed to be external tool. and, again, wholly optional. Chances are if you download such overlay, you know what you are going in for.

Sure, points 5.1 and 5.2 sounds nice, but ultimately their absence wouldnt be an obstacle in implementing such overlay.

@Lauri Heino

you think that’s something Statshark would be interested in contemplating?

If you are reffering to the live viewer bvr showed made by the statshark team, I need to ask as why would they be contemplating it.

Their live match viewer is external tool made by external website and they can do as they please. Cold truth is they have zero moral obligation to contemplate whenever they should make their tool if they dont want to.

If I were making the overlay as I originally planned to do, I too would have zero moral obligation to contemplate these things if I didnt wanted to.

@Lauri Heino

but for every one of you that would use it for “good”, you have 10 that will do exactly as Doctor mentioned.

I understand where you are coming from. I simply dont see it as problem. I simply kinda dont care if 10 other people will use statsharks live viewer to be more toxic. I also dont understand why I should be opposing creation of such tool solely due to the fact that someone, somewhere, might use it to be more toxic.

Sorry if I am coming off as rude, but this sounds little bit too much like the goverment overreach that is becoming ever more so present in my everyday life and I am already fed up with nonsensical laws limiting activities that should not be limited in the first place, activities that affect me and me only, just because someone, somewhere, might do a bad thing.

EU really doesnt need to scan all of my messages because someone, somewhere, might be using the chat application to commit a crime. If police has reason to believe a chat application is being used to commit a crime, go to court and get a warrant.

State really does not need to make energy drinks harder to obtain because someone, somewhere, might sell them to 15 year old. Their parents should be better at parrenting and teach the kids not to buy energy drinks.

Inb4 someone with 200 IQ asks me if I am saying that murder should be legal and I should be allowed to go 200km/h in town, thats not what I meant.

[FlyingDoctor]

@Beeschurger

with all respect where did i even imply that?

Are you seriously saying that the display you’re wanting would not effect your decision to save or work towards something that someone is doing because you merely don’t think they are showing up on that overlay enough.

You mentioned about wanting to know that who is on your flank has your back, but this is a natural progression.

@Beeschurger

yes, i find it extremely annoying i get shot by enemy that sits in the open in front of severall allies only for them to “wake up” after the fact and take him out instantly.

If i knew these people have reaction time of a dried out slug, I wouldve checked their sector too, despite doing so would add up to my “workload”.

@Beeschurger

I did not say anything about “not saving those that i do not deem worthy”.

@Beeschurger

Even if i would want to embrace the extremely meta game position on the issue, saving team mates is always a net positive because one player cant cover entire map and it gives the enemy more distraction so they dont shoot at me all the time.

There is, but, how much weight do you apply to the value of saving them. Trolley switch situation.

The overlay isn’t a good thing, and it will just bring more septic chats, team bail-outs, as well as simple blaming.

[Beeschurger]

@FlyingDoctor

Are you seriously saying that the display you’re wanting would not effect your decision to save or work towards something that someone is doing because you merely don’t think they are showing up on that overlay enough.

Yes, Im seriously saying that overlay wouldnt affect my decision to save a team mate.

@FlyingDoctor

but this is a natural progression.

Why? How? How do you reach such conclusion from what Ive stated?

@FlyingDoctor

how much weight do you apply to the value of saving them

Any info relayed by overlay wouldnt affect my decision to save a team mate because it would be irrelevant to the decision making process.

My decision about saving team mate relies solely on answering two questions:

1. Can I do it safely without getting myself killed
2. Can I do it in time

Simply as.

Again, if you want to look at it from the most sweaty metagaming angle, there is no logical reason to not save your team mate if you are able to, no matter his skill or vehicle.

Losing team mate means

• losing tickets
• losing pair of eyes to watch over section of map
• losing map positioning
• losing firepower
• losing someone who can potentionally draw enemy fire to himself

More often than not difference between saving and not saving a team mate is split second decision; even if overlay would be aviable there would be no time to check it and then decide whenever said team mate is worth saving.

@FlyingDoctor

The overlay isn’t a good thing, and it will just bring more septic chats, team bail-outs, as well as simple blaming.

Again, I simply dont care that someone, somewhere might use overlay (or rather the thing statshark team came up with) to become more toxic. Thats his thing to which he is perfectly entitled to.

[FlyingDoctor]

@Beeschurger

Again, I simply dont care that someone, somewhere might use overlay (or rather the thing statshark team came up with) to become more toxic. Thats his thing to which he is perfectly entitled to.

This is why you need to be considerate and critical in proposing or making threads about things.

[Lauri_Heino]

Ok, but here’s the problem.

Sure, there’s no issues now.

It’s a website, not an overlay, using official API hooks and public data, and because it’s a website, people can’t just impulsively check without alt-tabbing out of the game or using a second monitor.

BUT:
If it does become an overlay, there’s no more friction.
People will start impulse-checking.
Stat-sniping, match throwing, and ODLs become a problem.
Which means it starts becoming a moderation problem.

AND:
Moderation costs money.
Retention loss costs money.
And if there’s anything that will get Gaijin’s attention, it will be something hurting queue health and increasing moderation workload.

People quitting matches early, people leaving the queue due to bad stat spreads, hurts matchmaker stability.
Stat-based griefing will drive up report volume, and more GM hours costs more money.
(and as such they might throw rule 1.1.3 at it.)
And if there’s a noticeable change in in-game player behavior, that could trip the rules on “gameplay-affecting mods.”

If queue health drops, if reports spike, Gaijin will notice.
And if they do, it won’t be because they’re happy, no matter how clean the data is.

It’s not just about “morality,” it’s also about making sure the tool will survive for more than a few weeks before it gets banned.

As a web tool, it’s fine, at least for now - but if it becomes an overlay, and you don’t have any guardrails, you may have to accept that it’ll have a short lifespan.

[БЕИ]

@FlyingDoctor

So you wouldn’t try and save someone with bad stats because you don’t deem them to be worthy, or that they got themselves into it, as you said about taking hits from something sitting in front of someone prior.

This thing will be bad, no matter how anyone deems themselves to be not looking at those stats.

That’s poor risk assessment lol why would you choose to be saving someone with 0.3 KD when you could have save the person with 2.0 KD sitting next to him??

[Lauri_Heino]

(Allegedly) because the 2.0 KD guy can handle himself better than the 0.3 KD guy.

[Rikers_Beard]

The irony.

You’re proving with your words why such a system is intrinsically toxic.

[БЕИ]

@Lauri Heino

(Allegedly) because the 2.0 KD guy can handle himself better than the 0.3 KD guy.

The odds are that the better player will continue his match with a better outcome, especially if he is already in a good position, bad player most likely will just continue to feed the enemies more sp and drain the team’s tickets instead of the enemie’s. The record has told you that they hadn’t had any success in a very long time and the numbers don’t lie.

[БЕИ]

@Rikers_Beard

The irony.

You’re proving with your words why such a system is intrinsically toxic.

Hey, I never claimed it isn’t toxic; it is more about survival investment kind of thing or you call it selective support lol, if you want to use other words. If someone is already 0-2 in a match and the record says they are 0.3, yes chance are I am not going to risk my vehicle to save him only to end up dying and lose my current position in the map, I would if he is 2.0kd and good placement in the team as the odds are he will have a higher probability winning the match by doing something significant for the team. Most matches don’t end with both teams having 70% of the players still alive, most matches end with one team running out of players, so kills are a pretty good metric to weigh the risk, the best metric would be winning rate and nothing beats winning. Just my personal pragmatist standpoint, you can consider it is a flawed way to judge a player’s performance.

Like you are playing 11.3, then a M22 runs in an open only to get shot but somehow not dead, would you be risking your 11.3 vehicle to save him?

[Rikers_Beard]

I just do not care that much. The problems I have with this game extend more towards Gaijin as a business and a practice, to where the issues with how silly people act in matches isn’t enough. I DO get TEMPORALLY mad when people “Ruin my games” but it passes as soon as the match is over.

[БЕИ]

@Rikers_Beard

I just do not care that much. The problems I have with this game extend more towards Gaijin as a business and a practice, to where the issues with how silly people act in matches isn’t enough.

Like my previous post, we can already weight the probability of winning by looking at the team’s lineup, if you see half the team has one vehicle like Click-bait or T-80UE or two vehicles like Click-bait and M22 and they are low level, chance of 0 kill 1-death leaving is extremely high and you gonna get steamrolled and spawn camped three minutes into the game. It doesn’t really affect me that much since I usually just spawn right away and no time to check as I’m busy rushing to strong position lol

[Rikers_Beard]

See you keep missing the point.

I simply do not care about those circumstantial per match percentages and numbers and probabilities anywhere near enough to warrant such deliberation over them. You’re not going to get anywhere with me with those arguments.

[БЕИ]

@Rikers_Beard

See you keep missing the point.

It was never about me getting your point or not, it’s about a feature that provides extra information where some players can use that information to assess the various factors of a situation before making a decision, you are hyper-focusing on the toxicity part and can’t see what it brings to the table bro

[Rikers_Beard]

It brings nothing to the table of any real impact, and will only cause toxic behavior. It’s x amount of “benefit” for 2x amount of drawback. It’s not my problem if you refuse to see that.

[Beeschurger]

Considerate about eventuality that some people i dont know nor whose decision I cant influence MIGHT use a feature that is not against the rules to be toxic?

How are these people my responsibility?

[Beeschurger]

@Lauri Heino

If it does become an overlay, there’s no more friction.
People will start impulse-checking.
Stat-sniping, match throwing,

Again, someone, somewhere might do a bad thing and thats why there shouldnt be any overlay whatsoever for people that dont do such things?

How are these people that might do a bad thing MY responsibility if I dont know them nor do I have any way to influence their decisions?

@Lauri Heino

and ODLs become a problem

Ah yes, because we currently dont have massive ODL problem without any overlay in sight.

Almost as if overlay isnt the issue why people ODL and instead adressing that reason in order to fix ODL, we should oppose creation of analyzing tool in form of overlay because it MIGHT make the problem slightly worse.

@Lauri Heino

Which means it starts becoming a moderation problem.

See above, ODL is already moderation problem.

Stat-sniping would be fixed by simply not showing enemy teams SR1 rating.

@Lauri Heino

And if there’s anything that will get Gaijin’s attention, it will be something hurting queue health and increasing moderation workload.

Such as ODL issues.

Which we currently already have?