If anything, the ignorance is from your end…
And what is it with you guys getting all cut up about people not agreeing with you?
The amount of people I see not calling out that someone is spawn camping, and climbing to stall out and die is depressing.
It’s a genuine tactic and people are ignorant for not communicating, and not diving as they should be to drag the enemy down.
The whole reason they are above your spawn is because your team allowed them to get there. Every fighter has the same opportunity to do this.
You skipped the main part where I said “make more spawn points”, having several of them and not showing them on the map for the enemy team would make it much harder, even if you know where they are through experience, you can’t be everywhere at the same time. But we could also have dynamic spawn points or be able to spawn on any place(at current spawn altitude) on the first row of the map from your team’s side.
“At the start”. Start the match, climb, kill all the potential enemy spawn campers and you won’t ever get spawn camped. I understand that they don’t spawn directly above your spawn, and that they have to get there so if you want to stop them, better do it before they get there, simple. Since you think they are so crap at dogfights, I’m sure it will be very easy. If for some unexpected reason they are not as bad as you think and they kill you, then you can always dive as you respawn and try to find an opportunity to side climb, but the outcome will probably be the same cause if you haven’t beat them at the start it’s very likely that they will kill you again after they gained an energy advantage over you.
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So many are missing the point that we are getting fed up because we are trapped in the one spawn.
At least give us 2 spawn points like ground battles have to be able to avoid the campers, we only get 1.
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I think that is a very valid point. No map, in any mode, should have less than 2 spawn points, period. The other thing that should be done, imho, is to remove the markers for the enemy’s spawn(s) from the mini maps . . . again, in all modes. I would also suggest that there be multiple “set ups” for each map, varied spawn points and caps, a variety. This would make everything less “static/stagnant” and give players other options on how to play the various maps. All this would still not eliminate those that are dedicated spawn campers, and that is fine. All it would really do is make it just a bit more difficult. Locating the enemy’s spawn points . . you know, actual recon/seek & destroy aspect being added in.
Spawn points are not “bases”, they have no point value, nor defenses like an airfield does. There is literally no reason to waste time trying to “defend” a spawn point and sacrifice time/effort in playing the objectives. It makes no sense. They have moved the spawn points back in air battles several times, with the reasoning being it would make it harder and less profitable for spawn campers. And I am just assuming that as I have no idea really. But unfortunately it didn’t change anything at all. The extra time for them to get there is nullified by the fact it takes even longer to get to the action, for players to die so they can respawn, so it’s just a wash. All it did was make flying to get to the “game” take longer and cut back on player’s ability to score. Making two spawn points and placing them appropriately close to the “action” based on the game’s BR would seem ideal, increase the action, cut down on the “everyone just fly right down the middle of the map and die in head ons” less of a thing, while still maintaining spawn campers abilities to do their thing, so . . everybody should benefit. If one spawn is being camped, used the other one . . I think it would at least be worth trying. The spawning system has been virtually the same the entire 10+ years I have been playing . . . time for some tweaking if not a complete overhaul . . . . seems like.
But I would also add that many of the dedicated spawn campers are not “bad pilots” or bad at the game and I am sure they are various reasons that they do it. Several years ago, I talked to one guy from one of those Squadrons that specializes in spawn camping and I asked him why they did it, purely out of curiosity. He replied “We’re trying to break the game” . . . . ooooooooooook, but why?
Made no sense to me then, still doesn’t… . lol, but whatever. I just don’t understand how shooting people in the back while they are unaware makes someone a “gunslinger” myself, but to each his own.
People, in almost any given situation, will seek an “advantage”, gamers are no different and may be better at it than most folks. So it is not surprising. A level, balanced, “fair” playing field scares some people. I am not a great pilot, worse at tanks, not great with the ships either, but . . I enjoy it. I like playing this game very much. I don’t look at any other players as “bad” people, we’re all just trying to make it thru the day. But I also think everyone deserves a decent chance to play & have fun . . . nothing wrong with that. At the end of the day, I think a better/upgraded spawning system would make the game better . . but that’s just me . . . one guy, just here to pew pew pew & try to have fun
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This is a PVP game, not PVE. You prioritize killing ground targets because you are hopeless in the PVP game you are currently playing, and it angers you, people like you, that someone is pursuing the main goal of the game, which is to eliminate other players from the battle. They all start at the same time, you have the same chance of getting to the enemy spawn as them, if you fly nose down and shoot at the bots, die, and then reach for the bomber and get killed by a person from the opposite team, that’s only YOUR FAULT.
most of the people who camp are multiple tournament duel champions with titles, why would they follow you around the map and waste time when they can repeatedly kill you and people like you without situational awareness at spawn? This is the maximization of efficiency in what they do, instead of chasing a single player across the map for 40 seconds, they can effectively engage 5-10 people in combat and achieve much above-average results. You are probably one of those people who, if you reached the enemy spawn, would die on the first headon. Such a small difference.
I don’t think that would be enough for what you consider to be a problem, it doesn’t change much in Ground Battles when you let the enemy team reach your spawn, any of the two, cause at that time the match is basically lost(not always though). You’d probably need more than 2 spawn points or at least more than 2 possible locations for the spawn points and having them in random positions. Add not showing them on the map to the enemy team.
But if you really want anything to change you have to make it as a proper suggestion, cause here, as one more spawn camping thread, it will just have the same result as all the previous ones had, none.
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Oh dear… it’s called a psychological profile. Your mind and brain are the same whether you are gaming or in real life. It’s the way the brain works, it’s how you think, it’s how you respond to questions and situations. If you are a selfish person in real life, then the selfishness shows up in other activities as well, including gaming because that is the way that persons brain is wired. You do not have a switch in your head to switch to other “life modes”. You only have 1 brain. Some people are worse when they know they are annonymous and safe behind a keyboard because a big fist to the face cannot happen down a fibre optic cable.
If people do not think unfair play is immoral, they have an immoral sense of reality which shows up in real life. I’d hate to know what else they do not find immoral… scary.
If you think what i said is rubbish then you know even much less than fuck all about logic & psychological thinking. Proper psychologists can figure someone out after just a 1 hour interview. People can be figured out even quicker when there is a debate going on because they become more serious. Moral people do not argue the case for immoral subjects. It’s as simple as that. You like immorality??? Then you are immoral. No getting away from it. Doesn’t matter what you say, and when you deny being immoral when argueing for an immoral subject, you just show yourself to be a complete and utter “hypocrite”.
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Taking Warthunder way to seriously…
Reagrdless, I think this will be a fun conversation to have, so let’t do it, shall we?
Three words about this in particular. Morality is subjective. It is almost an impossibility to choose two humans at random from the same community and they agree on all points of morality. I can almost guarantee any point of “morality” has a counterargument because morality is not a fact based system, it is a belief based system.
Define what unfair play, and how you came to that conclusion. Include the reasoning why as well. I can assume thay it will be based on your belief of what is fair or unfair. I could probably come up with a counterargument quite easily because your definition and reasoning aren’t going to be factual (like how a water molecule is 1 hydrogen and two oxygen atoms, for example). The morality of spawn camping is shown in this thread. Some think it is immoral, while others do not. Niether of the sides of the argument are factual and wholly depend on how you believe things should be, which others can believe differently.
What’s scary is when someone can’t tell the difference between real life and gaming. By their gaming standard most people would be considered psychopaths or serial killers.
Don’t you feel satisfied when you get a kill in a game? But does that make you a real psychopath? I really don’t think so.
I’ll give an idea here… I know it’s kinda bull[censored] but Imma say it anyways.
Add a no-fly zone over the spawn. For example if team A’s spawn is at location Б, 2000 meters then lets add a no-fly zone with limit timer above location Б start from say 2500 meters to 15000 meters for the other team. If a member of the other team enters this no-fly zone and stays longer than say 15? 20? seconds, or has fired their weapons for over a resonable amount (I don’t quite know, maybe 10 bullets? Misclicks always happen.), a forced J-out with full (and probably additional) repair cost will be given to them.
Probably similar stuff could be done with ground battles?
Just a thought.
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Imho you see this topic from the wrong perspective:
- WT is outside SB a plain shooter
- The whole point of a shooter is to kill enemy players
- The whole point of playing a shooter is to rack up kills
- The most efficient way to get kills is to camp enemy spawn points
- Gaijin has designed their maps in order to facilitate spawn camping
- Air AB is the most popular air mode - with increasing player numbers
- So there is no ignorance of gaijin - the mode is designed this way
The main reason why gaijin is ignoring “suggestions” is described above - the mode is designed to enforce player interactions (=markers) and to camp the enemy spawn - like ever other 1st/3rd person shooter.
As written above - the mode is designed and optimized this way.
Imho expecting “fairness” is comprehensible regarding map design - to have the same conditions for both teams.
But a shooter and most of their players are not interested in “fair” fights.
I see these threads too, but the issue is not a single enemy player camping the enemy spawn - like in every other shooter it is borderline useless trying to fight coordinated squads doing this.
I agree just partially - as there is no definition of “best” based on actual skill.
There are just indicators. The pure number of kills and almost every statistical reference is actually useless in a pure 1 vs 1 on equal conditions - and definitions of “best” based on stats manipulated by playing with a coordinated stat padder squad are even more useless.
Being able to rack up high kill numbers is a sign of skill, but it is just a matter of understanding how the game works. Actual pilot skill shines in rather rare 1 vs 1s - that’s why outstanding pilots use joystick and full reals controls (or at least SFC with instructor off) in duels - whilst in-game the are farming rookies with mouse aim.
No offense, but you react to a imho valid recommendation way too rude .
The key in every shooter to avoid being spawn camped is to stay alive, to extend from the spawn and to prevent enemies from camping your team.
So if you get BnZd after spawning - you made previously a mistake and died. In most shooters it is (almost) impossible to recover from being spawn camped - either map design or the team composition (= weaker team gets camped) prevents this.
Same here, there is imho no need to get rude or to judge about a random stranger who has his specific kind of view on things. So even if your view on things sounds reasonable - you measure others just by applying your perspective.
Imho the fellow player is not wrong. There is a strong connection of social behaviour irl - and how people act in a video game or in a forum.
Imho you might be correct regarding the average player doing this - but countless threads & posts in the old and in the new forum are evidence enough that a hell of very experienced players use this tactic to rack up very high kill numbers - in specialized and coordinated squads.
Imho the main problem within wt is the balance between applicable skill / experience and the allocation of this skill adequately to both teams. So in equally skilled lobbies spawn camping is the result of a fight of both teams to get this advantage and/or deny the opposing team getting it.
… and is actually just a goal for a minority of wt players.
Fully agree - but somehow gaijin manages it quite successfully to create the illusion that the game is more a plain shooter - and lures people into grinding traps whilst allowing them to progress with PvE game play without the actual necessity to gain or improve PvP skills.
But, imho you assume that other players would have the same goals like you whilst playing the game or a certain mode. If you try to take a step back - the fellow player directly above your post has stated:
…and there is nothing wrong with this approach.
Although i agree to your general view on things regarding some psychological aspects (in-game and irl behaviour are related) you look rather trapped in the illusion that your own standards would apply to others.
Moral or morality is just a social construct depending on individual environments, learning experiences and individual perceptions. Usually people seeing their own povs as morally superior have either not the necessary knowledge to deal with deviating opinions or the they lack the ability to accept that others might not share their view on things.
As stated above there are extremely strong connections of irl and gaming behaviour.
There is a reason why soldiers have to be trained to kill enemies. Humans tend to be reluctant to kill other people, the whole purpose of training is to implement sub-conscious routines which shall prevent thinking before shooting.
There are countless studies of mass shootings which prove that people with mental disorders had serious issues to distinguish between irl and reality. Playing shooters with splatter/gore effects at young / very young ages is additionally lowering the natural restraints of humans to kill other humans.
Imho gaming and playing shooters does not make you a psychopath or serial killer, but it is known for ages that people with mental disorders tend to be excessively addicted to these games.
I was not refering to stats or number of kills, which like you said can be manipulated to a certain point, but to those that actually win most 1v1 tournaments. One thing is to get a lot of kills, some basically do it exclusively in lower tiers, another is to win 1v1 tournaments. I know many of them and I can say that they are amongst the best players in the game.
That’s why it’s scary to read what was said above cause a normal person would be able to separate gaming from real life. I still believe that most people are normal and not the exception.
No you really just completely missed the point, and attacking me is unnecessary. I dont find it difficult to avoid spawn campers but most people do. Unfortunately most people havent played enough to figure it out, so spawncamping gives a huge advantage to the team doing it and its like shooting fish in a barrel. If this is meant to be how the game is played thats absolutely fine but take away the tasks so as not to confuse inexperienced players and just make eveything air dom. Also this reasoning makes bombers and strike aircraft completely pointless because what your saying is that everyone should just take fighters and go to spawn camping because it automatically gives you a much better chance of winning. Either change the game design to fit the exploitation or fix the exploitation. It sdumb as it is.
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I’d disagree on a couple of things, it’s far from a plain shooter given the choice of vehicles and their respective specialist roles , and WT’s list of 'objectives in missions. This gives players at least the illusion (and when played advertised objectives the reality) of several ways to win. The problem is that newer players see this and chase the objectives, while a spawn camper completely negates these objectives, exploits bad game design and plays only on their terms. I’m not criticising the player for this but bad game design. Its like WT tricks newer players into believing there are many ways to win when one small exploit negates it all and 75% of vehicles in the game. Taking this to its only logical conclusion, in order to create a fairer playing field, they should just take away objectives and make everything air dom. As it is now, anyone that decides to ignore the games objectives has a huge advantage. IMO thats just dumb and detracts from what game advertises to be. I mean why even bother having bombers and strike aircraft? Also the theory doesnt hold up with ground battles as WT have done a ton of map work and put in other mitigations to avoid spawn camping. Yes it still happens but only normally when the game is already lost, and you know what, the game is much better for it.
I’d disagree with 6. and would love to see some official stats from WT. Cursory look at replay lists right now shows more and longer ground battles over the last 20 pages and interestingly more higher BR battles which im sure has some correlation to player retention. I originally was attracted to WT for the varied gameplay, and thats why I switched to ground a long time ago. It isnt just about shooting people. You can actually come way down in player kills in a ground battle and still be a huge influence on the battle outcome. Im not saying kills arent important but they arent the only factor in the game and that makes it interesting. I’ve lost count of the number of times I see high kill campers on losing sides. Thats because tactics and other things are part of the game. Unfortunately with air this isnt the case, because spawn camping negates all.
There is no reason to to enforce player interactions in a game where the maps and vehicle speed make it impossible to avoid them.
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The spawncamping threads have been done to death and there’s not much new that can be added. There’s many ways Gaijin could address this but won’t. To recap for the new people:
Campers say they are superior players, that people complaining about being shot down are responsible for not side climbing up stopping them from ever getting over the their spawn, and their maintaining “air superiority” for their team.
The ordinary players say they’re playing the game’s objectives, and can’t police every game to keep the campers away–especially since in Arcade it’s a bunch of strangers in a match–and it may not be until they get on their second or third plane they realize there’s a camper overhead.
The reality is more campers are playing their own game, to get into a situation where they have a speed/altitude advantage and enemy players have little time or ability to respond so they can run up as high a kill score as they can. They will always run when someone gets a critical hit on them as in their game “winning” is 0 deaths. As for how skilled they are they tend to be on the better side of dog fighters, but can only get these endless zero death victories by camping. True Air Superiority is keeping an altitude over the playing field and zooming in as an opportunity comes up, not hitting the enemy out of the gate. It’s like having the opposing football team tackling the other team from the sides as soon as they come out of the tunnel.
As for who’s more fixated and has problems, one side plays the game more hours than a full time job and posts videos of their greatest hits but also screenshots of the hate mail they get like people are jealous of their wins. The other side doesn’t.
Spawn camping has been a highly variable problem the past year or so, and depends greatly on the time of day and BR you are playing at. I can go a few weeks without seeing them and then it will be every other game. The last few times I was downed by them I arguably walked into it as I spawned with them about .8-1.2KM away and thought either shoot them or get shot. However it has happened enough a coordinated team of 2-3 of them has been playing that pretty much ruined the game.
I wouldn’t recommend engaging them in chat or otherwise, this community has proved fairly toxic, and honestly they want the hate mail as it vindicates them. Also don’t engage them unless you’re about to be killed anyway. Either play the way they force the game–by diving away, or just quit that particular match. It’s unfortunate arcade is like this, but I don’t see it changing anytime soon.
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