Brother, the gap between aim7m and r27er is a s big as the gap between aim7e and aim7m. theyre not eveb slightly comparable
this is the best idea, su27 is too strong for 13.0 but 13.3 would just best fox 3 hell, so just put every fox 3 carrier at 13.7 in sim.
and ideally make a 14.3/7 bracket.
aint ever happening cause gaijin dont care but its a good idea
You said that its speed barely makes a difference, which is simply false. It makes a huge difference.
This is what I just said.
Reading comprehension?
You kill your target first and then notch the fox 3, provided he doesn’t go cold. If he does go cold, you just notch, stay on the offensive and gain airspace. If he tries to notch, there’s a high chance he will fail due to DL + IOG.
Super specific? You should always crank when guiding a missile. It’s absolute basics of BVR.
It’s a low risk, low reward strategy. I don’t see what’s wrong with that. It’s not low risk, high reward or even low risk, medium reward.
Medium range fox 3 carriers should be at 13.3 (everything except AIM-54s).
You argued that fox 1 can’t ever be compared to a fox 3 and that F-14A and B should be 13.3 as well. This is simply false and R-27ER is a much better missile than AIM-54. It’s also much better than AIM-7F/M.
Su-27 would be dominant in BVR against F-16 ADF, F-15A and F-14B. I still think Su-27 deserves to be 13.0 (not Su-33), but let’s not pretend it wouldn’t tip the scale in the other direction at least slightly.
Then those fox 3 planes would be DOA most of them are weaker than most fox 1 planes. Unless you really think a FA2 or viggen di can dogfight an su27
Eveyone keeps saying this, Su27 is too strong statement. Most of you dont put any of this stuff into practice anyway. I have ran 2v2 F15A vs Su27.
I notice that the Su27 radar can be notched like any other rader. I noticed that the Et is easy to evade but very fast. I learned that there times when you truly have to turn cold and use your wingman. I noticed that the r27 er can be evaded just as you would a sparrow. I noticed that when my wing man and I both shot at one su27 that they had a hard time deciphering who shot due to the rwr. I learned very quickly to collapse turn space at the merge to prevent r73 shots. I learned to preflare alot. Its a fun fight I recommend everyone try it. It will overall make you a better pilot and will help you prepare evading things like the Mica.
It would be a plane that would force blue side to I don’t know… actually get good.
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I have played MiG-29 in a 12.7 bracket and it’s very easy to pick up kills with ERs. The problem is that you only have 2 ERs. You also don’t have enough fuel to fly high and give them good launch parameters. Once you run out of ERs your flight model is bad and R-60Ms aren’t exactly competitive at 12.7.
Su-27 fixes those issues, it has 3 times as many ERs, much better fuel economy, a good flight model and 4 R-73s on top of 6 ERs. The only weaknesses it has are avionics and worse, but still good flight model. However, it has HMD, which coupled with R-73 offsets the flight model being worse.
I have Su-27SM and still use ERs at 14.0. I never even think about using AIM-7Ms at 14.0.
I never said that Su-27’s radar can’t be notched. R-27 is hard to notch because it’s a fox 1 and because it has DL + IOG.
You can’t outpull an ER, just as you can’t outpull an AIM-120, R-77 or a MICA. You can bleed them of speed, but you can’t outpull them at close range like you can a sparrow. Sparrow pulls only 25 Gs.
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More important than awareness and positioning? There are definitely cases where missile speed makes a difference, sure—but knowing exactly where your opponent is, and where you are, is far more important than how fast your missile travels.
Take Spain, for example: on that map, most long-range missiles get wasted due to terrain interference. So yes, if both players are going hot and shooting at each other, missile speed becomes a factor. But in most real scenarios, it’s not the deciding one.
I’ve had a lot of success with Matra missiles, for example, even though they’re generally slower than others.
Oops—I misinterpreted what you said earlier. Let me respond properly this time.
If you try that tactic, you’ll usually end up dead. The reason is simple: it’s very hard to judge exactly how much time your missile needs to hit the target versus how long the enemy’s Fox-3 needs to reach you.
First of all, you don’t even know if you’ve been fired on with a Fox-3. Second, you don’t know which Fox-3 it is—Phoenix, Fakour, Derby, AIM-120—they all behave differently. So how can you judge if your missile will get there first and if you’ll still have time to notch? Most of the time, you can’t—and that’ll cost you your life.
You might manage a trade if you’re lucky though. I’ve traded several times with F-14s because they often fly straight even after launching a Fox-3.
The reward isn’t actually that low—quite the opposite! It’s a very low-effort tactic, but generally it pays off extremely well. That’s exactly why I dislike Fox-3s so much when they’re introduced into what was previously a Fox-1 environment. Once Fox-3s are in play, the entire meta shifts.
I agree with your first point.
I don’t agree with your second, though. You can still employ the shoot-and-run tactic with basically any Fox-3, and do it with little to no risk. But—even taking that into account—if the proposed changes went through, I’d still take them. They would move everything else up except for the first two F-14s, which would be a very positive change in my view.
I also agree that the Su-27/33 would dominate in BVR against the planes you mentioned. But BVR is just one part of the game, as long as we’re not talking about Fox-3s.
In a dogfight, the F-16 would still come out on top, and so would planes like the Gripen, the F-18 (still competitve at range as well if it has DL), and the Mirage. The Su-27/33 would have the advantage at range, but a disadvantage up close. That sounds pretty balanced to me.
Again, I really believe you’re overestimating how useful or effective the R-27s actually are. In real gameplay, there isn’t much difference between firing those or a Sparrow. What really matters—in order—are:
Awareness
Positioning
Number of missiles you have
Missile speed (last)
I’d encourage you to think about the Gripen in particular: despite having no BVR capability, it’s still one of the strongest planes at 13.0. As long as you don’t have to deal with Fox-3s, BVR isn’t even a required part of combat.
R-27ER being that strong outweighs the Su-27’s bad avionics. Su-27’s aren’t bad enough for the missile to be this good. It would need to have MiG-23ML’s avionics with SPO-10 or something.
No matter who you are shooting at, you crank and maneuver just as hard every time and notch only if the enemy goes cold.
The only platform that carries AIM-120s which Su-27 can meet are Harriers, which are subsonic bricks, and Tornado F3 Late, which you meet like never and it’s also a brick. Derbys on Kfir C10 are already much worse than the ER, so you don’t have to worry.
Shows how bad an average player is, if he can’t deal with a single missile coming towards him without any additional pressure (the enemy literally flees). They probably try to multipath when the missile is coming top down and are greatly surprised that multipathing doesn’t work against this particular missile…
It would have a significant advantage at range and a moderate disadvantage up close.
Su-27 also simply has a lot of missiles, a lot of combat endurance.
The first 2 are largely dependent on player skill, while the last 2 are almost purely determined by the plane.
Rafale is the best plane in the game, yet Su-30SM is a better plane for air superiority.
Su-27 would be great in BVR, have a lot of combat endurance, while still being competitive in dogfights, just like Su-30SM. These are the features that make a plane which can dominate the lobby, while theoretically not being the best plane. It’s a great all rounder, with being more specialized in BVR, which is the majority of your fights.
That’s why before 14.0s were added, the meta plane was F-15C and not F-16C. F-16C was better in dogfights, but F-15C wasn’t a brick either and it had more missiles.
Again, I still think Su-27 deserves to be 13.0, but let’s not downplay how good it would be just because redfor suffers or something.
I was talking about awareness and positioning in general—not just in relation to avionics. What I meant is that if you’re aware of your enemy and position yourself correctly, missile speed becomes secondary.
About the graph you posted below—it still doesn’t answer what I said. You have no information about how close the missile is, or what kind of missile it is. So if you try to fight back and it turns out the missile was already too close, you’re going to eat it long before your R-27 gets to target.
Whenever your RWR beeps, the only truly safe move is to notch and forget about any previously launched Fox-1—unless you were aware of the enemy beforehand and know for a fact that your missile will get there first.
The graph you posted might apply if you’re 100% sure you’re going head-on with an American F-14, but most of the time, you simply don’t know. Look at the same graph with a Fakour, and you’ll see that the time you’d have to kill the F-14 first shortens a lot. And again—you have no way of knowing which F-14 you’re facing.
Not knowing what plane is in front of you, or what kind of missile was launched, means you cannot reliably calculate how much time you have to fight back. In your example, maybe the high-flying plane coming toward you wasn’t an F-14—it was actually a Viggen with AMRAAMs. You go head-on thinking you’ll get him first and have time to notch—boom, you die to the AMRAAM.
So we come full circle to the original point: awareness and positioning are more important than missile speed, which only becomes relevant if you have perfect information about where your opponent is and what weapon he’s using. And in most cases, you don’t—so the only consistent choice is to notch or hide.
Also, I think you’re underestimating how hard it is to notch a Fox-3. Maybe you’re really good at it—but as I showed you, most players aren’t. I’d include myself in that group too.
And if you choose to play the “fire R-27 back” game, that means you’ll need to notch the Fox-3 with much less time than if you had notched immediately. That makes the timing harder and the risk much higher.
To summarize: you can fire an R-27 back, but doing so requires information you probably don’t have, and a very high level of confidence and skill in notching incoming Fox-3s with very little margin for error.
Notching is hard, and you don’t get any immediate feedback that confirms whether you succeeded or not. Your RWR will keep beeping even if the missile has already been defeated. But you can’t be sure, so you’re forced to stay in the notch just in case.
Most players still struggle with notching (including me—I’ll admit it!), and that’s a big part of why Fox-3s are so effective.
I honestly think it would be on par with the premium F-18 and F-15. Those two planes, while different, are equally strong opponents in my opinion.
It would be amazing at 13.0—just like the F-18 is. I don’t think it would be stronger than that, and in a fight between it and the F-18, I believe the only real deciding factor would be player skill.
Keep in mind: the F-18 still carries six Fox-1s, and realistically, you’re never going to use that many before you end up in a merge during a 1v1, and that’s why I would also lower the Su-33. Carrying more missiles helps combat endurance, but you will never need more than 4 in a 1v1.