Yep
A lot has changed.
- Multipathing went down from 100m to 60m
- Flanker got a big flight model buff
- Gaijin fixed scan patterns, which buffs the worst radars the most
- Radar controls have been significantly improved, making BVR at high altitude much easier.
- Countermeasures have been split and now you can drop chaff and flares separately, which buffs jets with low amount of countermeasures the most. (Su-27 also has large caliber countermeasures, so they are more effective, but that hasn’t changed.)
- Su-27 has now 20km range on its HMS
- Su-33 has been added with 8 R-27ERs and a digital RWR
All of this while R-27ER has remained the best Fox 1 in the game, that has better kinematics than AIM-120.
If Su-27 and especially Su-33 were moved down to 13.0 now, they would wipe the floor with their 6 and 8 R-27ERs respectively. Sparrows are just much worse, AIM-54s too and Fakour is only present on an event vehicle.
Premium F-18 gets Sparrows with data link, but it’s slow, not suitable for BVR at all and it’s a premium. AIM-7P is also still a Sparrow with same kinematics. F-18 is a good plane that should be at least at 13.0 (both tech tree and premium variant), but it won’t be able to contest Su-27s in BVR.
I still think something should be done, either a 13.3 bracket or Su-27 being moved down to 13.0 (not Su-33), but let’s not pretend Su-27 isn’t a very good plane. The only thing it lacks is good avionics.
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Don’t forget that red side has AIM-120s too on F-4F ICE.
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It could go 13.0 with 27ER&ET removal
I learned that while MiG-29s never carried R-27Es, Su-27s were intended to fly with them from the beginning, just like MiG-29 was intended to fly with R-73s, so I’m not for this solution that was flawed anyway. Just buff the blue side with a little something like AIM-7MH instead.
Overall I would:
- Fix MiG-29’s and Su-27’s flight models (MiG-29’s sucks while Su-27’s is performing well where it shouldn’t and bad where it should perform well)
- Move Su-27 down to 13.0 (Su-33 stays)
- Give R-73s to all MiG-29s and remove their R-27Es
- Move MiG-29 to 13.0
- Move F-16A block 10 to 13.0
- Give AIM-9Ms to all F-16s and F-18s
- Give AIM-7MH (AIM-7M with lofting) to F-16s, F-15s and F-18A (if it could carry them, idk)
- Move F-18A to 13.0 and F-18C Early to 13.3
- Move all medium range Fox 3 carriers like Harrier, F-4F ICE and Kfir C10 to 13.3
- Move F-14A IRIAF to 13.3
- Keep F-14A and B at current BRs
- Add some upgraded MiG-23 variant to 12.3 or 12.7 (just not the one with R-77s)
- Add 12.3 and 13.3 brackets
not all 27 flown with them, thats missile closer to 90’s
also, 7MH would be enough, it still will lack in perfomance a lot against 27ER. while being comparable with 27R tbh
Harrier and Kfir more like close range fox-3 carriers.
Harrier cant give normal launch stats, Kfir have derby…
with addition of 9M or AMRAAM? or how?
theyre both inferior to planes, that you want to put 13.0… in both - missile amount and quality. aswell as they have only good… nothing? it’s mid plane, just mid.
they should stay at their current br.
Maybe swiss(german premium) one that gets added in that update could go 13.0, due to -402 engines and 120CM.
Oh right, I forgot, AIM-9Ms for all F-18s too.
That doesnt seem problematic at all. It would reinforce the completely absent redside a 13.0. It has an rwr that cant really decipher multiple launches. At 13.0 it would be mid at best. Ive done some proof of concept matches F15A vs Su27. You should try it, it’s a pretty dynamic fight. For the most part it’s pretty even when both pilots are capable.
Also it would get washed out by Aim 120 from the harrier ii and the farkour.
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If you remove the r27er then move all of the 13.0 aim 120 busses up to 13.3, f4 ice, harrier ii and kifr c10
Or keep the Iran f14 at the current br and remove the farkour
The 15A stomps on any flanker currently in a guns only dogfight and it’s not even close.
And even with R73s, you can just preflare it.
The only thing the flanker has going against the 15A are the missiles, though both the 9M and 7M are not bad missiles by any means (especially the 9M in sim).
considering also that the 15A has much better avionics.
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When you really think about it, it’s a fun fight. We were doing 2v2 bvr fights. we always ended up making it to the merge Or within 5 miles.
If they were moved down, they wouldn’t wipe the floor with anything. At best, they’d be on par with the F-18. The fact that the R-27ER is slightly faster makes almost no difference in actual gameplay. If that were the case, the MiG-29 and Yak-141 should be—if not dominating—at least feared in the current meta. Yet they’re not, because hitting with an R-27 is much harder than it seems. The only viable MiG-29 is the G variant, and that’s because of the R-73, not the R-27ER.
Second, in NO world can a Fox-3 be compared to a Fox-1. PERIOD. The reason is simple: a plane with Fox-3 can spam and run, while a plane with Fox-1—even with datalink—cannot do the same. A smart person flying a Kfir or F-14 should never die to an Su-27 at range. If that happens, the Fox-3 plane has made a mistake. A Fox-3 allows you to fire and forget, then run back to base. This has only two outcomes:
- The opponent notches or uses MP and avoids the missile, but after wasting so much time trying not to die, they can no longer chase the Fox-3 launcher.
- The opponent dies to the missile.
In both scenarios, the Fox-3 carrier survives and remains the aggressor, while the Fox-1 plane is always on the defensive. The only time this doesn’t work is on very flat maps like Denmark, where MP is super easy—but in that case, the R-27ER is equally useless, for the same exact reason: MP.
So even if you lower the Su-27/33 to 13.0, they’ll still be worse than any Fox-3 slinger.
Also, before the R-27ER was introduced, NATO planes always had the range advantage, and no one was complaining. Missile speed only suddenly became a “problem” when the fastest Fox-1 wasn’t on a U.S. plane.
While better kinematics are obviously a plus, in real gameplay what makes the biggest difference is who sees who first, and positioning. Those two elements matter more than missile speed—especially because while the R-27 is faster, that doesn’t mean the others are slow. They’re just slightly less fast.
Additionally, the Su-27 is a very hard plane to fly compared to the F-16 or F-18, because it bleeds energy much faster and struggles to recover it. Using it to its full potential requires a good amount of skill. To me, it feels very similar to delta-wing aircraft in the way it handles in War Thunder. In the hands of the average player, the F-18 will still win the engagement, because most players rate fight—and the F-18 is the better rate fighter.
Another point: because the F-18 with datalink is a premium, we see a lot of them. War Thunder has always seen a massive spam of premium vehicles, especially at high tiers, because it’s much easier to buy one than to grind the entire tech tree from scratch.
Also, the U.S. team usually has a significant advantage in player count, so any Su-27/33 is likely to face 2 to 4 enemies for every member of the red team. Even if the Su-27 were the best fighter ever—which it clearly isn’t—this discrepancy would only make the match more balanced. If. And again, it’s absolutely not the case.
It reached mach 4.12 while sparrow reached mach 2.95. At no point the ER was slower than the sparrow. It was at mach 2.71 on impact, while the sparrow was at mach 2.62.
R-27ER is the only reason these jets are playable. It carries them hard.
It can if the fox 1 has sufficient kinematic advantage. The ER can reach the target first with a margin big enough, that the carrier aircraft has time to notch the incoming fox 3, especially if it’s already cranking and especially if you launch first.
It usually forces both planes to notch or forces the opponent to go cold, because of how hard it is to notch fox 1s with DL + IOG, while you can just notch and gain the initiative.
You can also theoretically launch late on purpose (if you’re against aim120s for example), notch the incoming missile and relock the enemy, but it’s hard to execute and a trick, rather than a tactic.
All of this doesn’t work at close range though, because of how small the margin get, but at what range the fox 1 becomes ineffective depends on how big the difference in kinematics is.
Multipathing isn’t meta anymore, notching and maintaining altitude advantage is better. If you launch from a steep enough angle you can bypass multipathing. Denmark is the only map where multipathing is somewhat relevant, but not foolproof either.
F-18 isn’t a better rate fighter, it’s better in 1 circle and stall fights, pulls more aoa.
Also consider that R-73 is a very powerful missile for dogfights. Slave it, launch it at 500m and the enemy is gone.
Plane popularity is not a balancing factor.
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Why are you taking it personally?
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Phantoms are bricks, while F-14 lacks a Russian counterpart, so it can only ever be op or very mid.
MiG-29s and Su-27s were not supposed to be bricks with godlike missiles.
I didn’t say Su-27 is the best plane ever. I said it would be dominant in BVR, even with inferior avionics, due to 6 insane fox 1s.
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Wasnt this exactly what the R-27E series was designed to do IRL? As a short term bodge counter to the AMRAAM whilst the R-77 was developed?
Make a missile with enough speed to basically force the target onto the defensive before the AMRAAM could go active
Eh… If we were talking about a 13.7 AMRAAM slinger, maybe. But something like the Sea Harrier FA2 or Viggen DI? Sure, you may be forced onto the defensive, but the moment you’ve defeated all the incoming missiels you can turn back and go get a free kill. Not exactly like a FA2 that was running 4x AMRAAM is going to do much against an Su-27 in WVR combat.
With the exception of the ICE, which the SU-27 will rarely if ever face. None of the Fox-3 slingers are actually very good and are all carried by the fact they have Fox-3s. They all have weaknesses and defecits that can be easily exploited. The main thing you will be fighting is F-18s, F-15s and Gripen As. I dabble at that BR a bit, and I never see many fox-3 slingers. Even myself, I cant be bothered to play the FA2 because you are so outclassed at the moment (its also a buggy mess)
If the Su-27 moves down, then you might as well move all 13.3s down, so that is aircraft like the Tornado F3 Late and Mig-29SMT as well, because there isnt much point leaving them be.
No? Its not just range and speed that R-27ER beat the Aim-7M and Skyflash SuperTEMP on. It also had IOG and DL. Those were and are 2 insanely powerful assets. Just look at the F-18s. Those with Aim-7M at 12.3 those with Aim-7P are 12.7. Same missile, just one as IOG the other doesnt. IOG and DL used right was and is an insane combo that cant be dismissed. The only thing that kept R-27ER in check for that entire year, was that the Mig-29 was limited to only 2 and had a poor radar.
That year sucked for me, trying to fight Mig-29s in the F3 as it was impossible for me to either BVR against them and obviously couldnt dogfight against them. Didnt get much better with the Gripen C.
So no… R-27ER wasnt hated because it wasnt on an american aircraft. It was hated because it was and still is the best SARH in game and by no small margin. There is still a place for them at 14.0 if used right
Prior to this ,you had the Mig-23MLD with R-24Rs that did and still do clown on basically anything they can find at 11.3 or 11.7. Only the FGR2 can even come close to fighting the Mig-23MLD and its not easy. R-24R will win below 8km and Skyflash DF isnt great past about 10km unless up high, so thats a tiny window of advantage for the FGR2. Its not until the 12.0 stuff like the F3 and F-4S that the Mig-23MLD can actually be countered. R-24R is definetly the best SARH below 12.0
As previously stated though, just moving 13.3s down to 13.0 just makes 13.0 even more unplayable than it already is for many aircraft. Instead. Add a 12.3 to 13.3 bracket and move several up to 13.3. Like the F4F ICE and maybe the F-15A, Gripen A and F-18C Earlys?
Also add a 11.3 to 12.3 bracket and then move a few 12.3s up to 12.7 or maybe even 13.0. and that entire BR range just becomes so much more playable. Because moving all 13.3s to 13.0 is just not an answer, jsut like how moving all 12.3s to 12.0 wouldnt be an answer either.
MiG-29SMT at 13.0? Absolutely not. Buff its flight model, give it upgraded engines and move it to 13.7, where it belongs.
Tornado on the other hand is like a gen 3.5. It should stay at 13.3 as a missile bus with a good radar, just with 13.3 and 13.7 brackets. 13.3 should be here, while 13.7 bracket we won’t get until we see 14.3s.
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Yeah, probably the better option. Either that or just add a 13.3 bracket and leave it alone for now.
But if you move the Su-27 down, you might as well move everything at 13.3 down and then 13.0 just becomes a 13.3 bracket.
Yes, I also aknoledge that it’s faster, but I also said that awareness and position are more important than how quick your missile is.
You don’t have anything else to fire, and it doesn’t “carry” them—those planes are still bad. I’d say it’s their only chance to compete. The only good MiG-29 is the G variant, and that’s because of the R-73. I’ve used it quite a lot recently, and the vast majority of kills come at close range with the R-73. Long-range kills with the R-27 are incredibly rare, also because you forget that red planes have terrible RWRs. That means you often don’t even know who’s locking you or what’s coming your way, so you can’t tell whether the incoming missile is a Fox-1 or a Fox-3.
This is not what happens usually—you go into the notch, lose lock, waste the missile. Try it. Even with DL, it’s very likely that by the time you notch, your opponent has already moved somewhere else, and unless you reacquire them immediately, the missile is still wasted.
Also, what did I say earlier a Fox-3 launcher should do? Lock, launch, flee. A Fox-3 user who fires and then keeps flying straight is making a mistake. And the premise of this encounter is already super specific: you’d need to be cranking, you’d need to know that the person looking at you has Fox-3 (which you don’t), and your opponent would have to go straight the entire time. Not realistic.
You’re missing the point. A Fox-3 plane can fly at almost Mach 2, launch at that speed, then go cold and rearm—leaving the missiles to do all the work. And the Fox-1 plane can’t do anything about this tactic. Nothing. Either it dies because it fails to notch properly, or it survives, but at that point the Fox-3 plane is already too far away to retaliate.
That means it’s only a matter of time before the Fox-1 plane makes a mistake and dies, while the Fox-3 plane can keep repeating this tactic with complete impunity. I do this with the Italian Harrier (which isn’t even supersonic) and the Chinese J-8, and I very rarely die—unless I get ambushed by someone using terrain smartly, or unless I’m dumb enough to go into a dogfight. In the first case, the enemy deserved the kill. In the second, I deserved the loss.
Let me go on a little rant here: more than taking it personally, I’m just frustrated that Gaijin keeps making it easier for the team that brings more players and more money. Some of their choices are deliberately unbalanced and ruin the game—and those choices always go against the red team.
People complain that it’s hard to find a match, but it’s only going to get worse if the red team doesn’t get something competitive. No one wants to join a match where you’re doomed to lose every time. For example, I don’t even play top tier 12.7 anymore. It’s not worth it—it’s unbalanced and feels almost disrespectful.
Red team only has the MiG-29, and somehow that plane is supposed to fight the F-18 with datalink, F-18 without datalink, F-14 with Fox-3, and the F-16. Of course nobody wants to join that lobby just to become target practice.
And the reverse is true too. Many times I want to play an American plane, but I simply can’t because no lobbies are available. Earlier I mentioned the Harrier and F-16—now I only play the Italian variants, because it’s the only way to actually find lobbies, since they can appear on either team.
Speaking of the F-16, that’s another plane being ruined by BR compression. It’s higher in BR than the F-14 and F-18, despite those being way more competitive. It’s at the same BR as planes like the Kfir and Viggen, and that just makes zero sense.
Let me break down what the gameplay loop looks like for me:
Want to play War Thunder
Check available lobbies
Only red team lobbies are available, on decent maps (I don’t play 12.7+ on Tunisia, for example)
Forced to play red team → lose every single match
Sometimes I wish I could play the F-14. Sometimes I wish I could play the Su-27. Sometimes I wish I could play the F-16 ADF at the correct BR. But unfortunately, none of that is possible right now.
Just to give you some context: currently my MiG-29 at 12.7 has a 21% win rate, and my MiG-29G has 0% in 8 games. I don’t know how much worse it needs to get before Gaijin finally decides to address the imbalance. If one team is consistently getting slaughtered, then clearly there’s a balance issue.
It wouldn’t matter, because at that BR there are already Fox-3s. That statement would only be true if it were moved to an environment where only Fox-1s were present.
I would do the opposite. I’d still make a 13.3 bracket, but instead of moving the Su-27 down I would move every fox3 plane up, maybe saved the F14A (USA). After all Kfir and Viggen are on the same level of a Mig29 SMT, so there is really no reason for them to have a different br, for example.