Russian MBTs: Firepower and Protection versus NATO counterparts

[jaded_sakura77]

Unless you want to get drawn into a thousand message long cope thread, I don’t recommend continuing. It’s happened before.

Fox is still overpowered

Although the fox went from 7.0 to 7.7 is still is broken. Being able to spawn camp 30 seconds into a game is ridiculous. It should become 8.0 or 8.3, and have a mobility nerf. On a side note, the btr 80a for Italy and Russia have 28mm less pen for its 30 but it’s only 5 calibers shorter than the Brit 30mm 165 vs 170… A bit odd, meaning the BTR is lacking pen with its APDS round It’s for balancing purposes.

[MiG_23M]

There is no need, what has been said is more than sufficient to disprove his absurdity. If he needs further proof he can simply be referred back to this post going forward.

This is all beside the point that it is mandatory for crewman to load in under 6 seconds simply to pass OSUT training at Fort Moore. In-game the untrained crew is loading in 6.5, it should be mandatory that an untrained crew loads in 6s flat.

[UniqueScorpions]

An ace abrams crew should have like a 5.75 sec reload, I think that’s plenty fair, and is clearly faster than anything I have yet to see.
Also, it’s funny that you think I have not laid my own eyes on these systems. For you all you know I could have been a crew member.

Abrams Ammo door

Are you ready for the #tank life?

Still over 1 sec.

[AK_Awful_Waffle]

@UniqueScorpions

For you all you know I could have been a crew member.

🤣🤣🤣

[MiG_23M]

@UniqueScorpions

Also, it’s funny that you think I have not laid my own eyes on these systems. For you all you know I could have been a crew member.

I’m the guy in the video, please reference this post

[UniqueScorpions]

And? How does this support the 1 sec reload you say abrams have?

You clearly are sitting still, you have your handle ready to depress the handle, you look to see exactly what shell you’ll need, you depress the handle, grab the shell (blast door was already open), then flip it and insert it, ram it in, pull up the lever and yell up.

I don’t see how this shows blast door opening speed either.

Show another video of you sub 4 secs with the blast door closed in combat conditions, because that’s how WT models it.

[MiG_23M]

@UniqueScorpions

does this support the 1 sec reload

I never said the tank has a 1 second reload, please reference this post and read thoroughly.

[UniqueScorpions]

And where are videos to support it?

[MiG_23M]

Please, reference the linked post. The proof is literally right there, on video. A casual 4.77s reload with a pause for the door to open and gentle laying of the round on the gun breach. It cannot get any easier.

[UniqueScorpions]

@MiG_23M

Please, reference the linked post. The proof is literally right there, on video. A casual 4.77s reload with a pause for the door to open and gentle laying of the round on the gun breach. It cannot get any easier.

Don’t worry I’ve highlighted the clearly open ammo rack. “Casual”
4.77 + 0.06 as the timer was started after, add in 1.0-1.2 secs for the blast door to actually open = your time.
Also I added a photo of the blast door :)

@UniqueScorpions

In this clip, he loads in 4.77 secs (timer on the phone in vid started 0.06 secs after he started), so really it was 4.83, with the blast door open, stationary, and knowing what will be loaded.

4.83secs + 1.2 sec blast door opening time + 0.5 sec combat conditions (I’m being really generous here for combat conditions), + moving / not moving.

So in a perfect combat condition world, while stationary the reload would be about 6.53 secs.

Care to attempt to dispute this further? Because the only “4 sec” reload I’ve seen, which was 4.26 secs, was a lap load or “ready round” in the hands of the loader.

I already did the math for you. But here it is again. ^

Maybe they should add a key bind to keep the ammrack open to have 5.5 sec reloads, but if it’s hit the whole vehicle explodes, and if it’s closed it’s a 6.15 sec reload.

[AK_Awful_Waffle]

You’ve lead the horse to water. But you cannot make him drink.

[MiG_23M]

@UniqueScorpions

IMG_92371792×828 238 KB

Again, please reference the post and watch the video. There is pause after knee hits the switch to account for ammo door opening; You were even told that I was not grabbing the furthest round from the opening of the door. I was grabbing the closest ones. The door would not have needed to open even 1/4 of the way to allow me to pull that round out.

@MiG_23M

Note that I pause to simulate ammunition door opening in this static test.

I even stated as much in the original post that you continue to look over intentionally.

I will also reiterate that this is an extremely carefully executed reload. I did not slam the round down on the breech stub base deflector tray. I simply said the steps in my head, and then did them in the correct order to demonstrate a “proper” reload.

@UniqueScorpions

add in 1.0-1.2 secs for the blast door to actually open

@UniqueScorpions

If this is indeed you (very saddening that they’re giving trainees selfie time and phones during their OSUT training)… then it explains quite a bit. I estimate this photo was taken in 2022 when covid masks were still required during OSUT. This is a period of time where drills were no longer allowed to say things such as “shut the f**K up” or even lay a finger on a trainee. All of the soldiers from this period of time have shown an extreme lack of initiative, discipline, and have been unable to cope with the real Army. These efforts were made to recuperate after the recruiting crisis.

If the only tanks you have spent any time on are the ones I mentioned from basic training it would explain why you think 1.2s is the “fastest reload” for an ammo door.

@MiG_23M

This tank is used at Fort Moore (Previously Fort Benning) for trainees. It is used and abused almost daily without proper maintenance periods or intervals between live fire exercises. It was used for more than a decade and a half without a single day zero reset. In spite of the abuse, the ammo door opened in no more than 1.2s and closed in approximately 1s flat. This is an absolute worst case example where the tank has a worn out hydraulic pump & system as compared to a pristine brand new tank’s.

Regarding what the real world maximum load time is, it’s 6 seconds. It always has been since the tank entered service in 1980.

In regards to “on the move”, at speeds up to 12mph there was no significant differential in load times. The loaders were consistently loading in under 5.5 seconds. The first round was 5 seconds, the rest were around 5.3 in these tests;

Note that this test was conducted in 1980. These crewman had less than one year experience and were not aiming to load as fast as possible. Instead the test required that they load in exactly the sequence stated in a relaxed and consistent fashion. Just as I did. Except that I loaded the 120mm shell in 4.77 seconds.

Of course, you should know all of this. You’re a tank crewman right?
-edit-
Nvm, the image isn’t from his phone - it’s from reddit.
I’m not convinced.

[UniqueScorpions]

No lmao, that’s not a photo of me XD

• 6 secs is more accurate and should be what it is in game.
• there are few and far between people who can load sub 5 secs, and your bulkhead door is open from the very beginning… so I’m not sure who your fooling.
• again you 4.77 was actually 4.83 as there is a 0.06 sec time difference from timer start to stop. (Adding you aren’t adding the fact of the door needing to be opened, which is unrealistic, unless of course, that’s how the Army does it, which makes sense for that level of intelligence).
  -for the “on the move shots, are we talking flat ground? Because the 0.3 difference would indicate that.

[MiG_23M]

@UniqueScorpions

• there are few and far between people who can load sub 5 secs, and your bulkhead door is open from the very beginning… so I’m not sure who your fooling.
• again you 4.77 was actually 4.83 as there is a 0.06 sec time difference from timer start to stop. (Adding you aren’t adding the fact of the door needing to be opened, which is unrealistic, unless of course, that’s how the Army does it, which makes sense for that level of intelligence).
  -for the “on the move shots, are we talking flat ground? Because the 0.3 difference would indicate that.

• It is established on video and on documentation since 1980 that the Abrams loaders with under 1 year of training can load in 5-5.3 seconds handily, even on the move.
• You are admitting that they can load in under 5 seconds now.

@UniqueScorpions

6 secs is more accurate and should be what it is in game.

Yet you still think it should be 6 seconds flat and you’re not even willing to make a reasonable argument such as “MPAT or heavier rounds should take longer to load” or “Tanks moving more than ~12mph should have reduced load times” or any other reasonable argument.

[UniqueScorpions]

I haven’t agreed with anything you said. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Nor have you shown evidence to support accurate sub 6 secs claims. Load a shell next time with the door closed, we shall see then.

[MiG_23M]

@UniqueScorpions

I haven’t agreed with anything you said. Don’t put words in my mouth.

I quoted you directly.

@UniqueScorpions

Nor have you shown evidence to support accurate sub 6 secs claims. Load a shell next time with the door closed, we shall see then.

You’ve been given documentation and video proof.

Abrams tank #tank reload

I’m aware it is not 4.4s in the video as claimed, it is sub-6s as you claim isn’t possible.

[UniqueScorpions]

Wow. 4.6 secs, with the ammo door not even closed XD

[MiG_23M]

If you have a legitimate suggestion as to how to fix the reload rates in the game aside from artificially nerfing it to the bare minimum reload rate required to pass a trainee from OSUT I’d like to hear it.

At least now you’ve admitted that 5 seconds isn’t impossible, and everyone here is now knowledgeable of the fact that rookie loaders consistently put rounds in the tube in ~5.3s

[UniqueScorpions]

Uh huh sure…

@MiG_23M

If you have a legitimate suggestion as to how to fix the reload rates in the game aside from artificially nerfing it to the bare minimum reload rate required to pass a trainee from OSUT I’d like to hear it.

At least now you’ve admitted that 5 seconds isn’t impossible, and everyone here is now knowledgeable of the fact that rookie loaders consistently put rounds in the tube in ~5.3s

Let’s get one with the bulkhead closed eh? You know. And actual test?

[MiG_23M]

Yes, please take the time to actually read the replies. In 1980, novice loaders were cycled through and loaded a combined average of between 5 and 5.33s even on the move up to 12mph.

Please reference this post you apparently didn’t read.

In 1980, the available ranges for conducting tank gunnery were still entirely unpaved lanes with twists, turns, bumps, and intentionally placed concrete squares designed to form a “rumble strip”. The “on-the-move” loading would have been conducted on these lanes because there were no other test sites available.