Review & Feedback: Aiming points

Dev Server "Heavy Cavalry" General Discussion - Dev Server
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With the latest update of the dev server, we are finally able to properly test out the Aiming Point mechanic added this major update that enables the simultaneous engagement of multiple preset targets using GNSS weapons, including those with SAL as well. This is a good system, but its implementation is…. Rather poor. So here is a full Review & Feedback, with suggestions for improvement and refinement. I would be eager to hear anyone else’s feedback and suggestions for improvement.

Controls

The first and biggest issue I have so far identified is one of the controls. So far it has added 8 new controls, most of which are required for the full usage of this setting. This seems rather excessive given large overlap with pre-existing settings and in some cases, just unnecessary doubling of settings. So im going to go through them and suggest any improvements

Select Next/Previous Aiming point. - I don’t have issue with these settings and aren’t necessarily required to be bound as you can control via the map too. So these can stay unchanged.

Add/Delete Aiming Point - Again, no issue with these, they work as advertised and work properly.

Link point of interest to aiming point - My only real issue with this is the wording of the setting itself, not sure what it could be changed too, but could also heavily benefit from a tooltip to make the settings more obvious as to its function. As suggested here

Now onto the 3 main problematic controls.

Link & Unlink weapon to/from Aiming Point - Why are these 2 settings? Why is this not a toggle? “Toggle weapon link to aiming point”. One setting, 2 functions. Simple, easy.

It’s function is also really ambiguous, from what I can tell, it toggles between the weapon deploy to all aiming points or just the selected aiming point

Salvo Launch to Aiming Points - …. Where to begin. First things first…. WHY?!

We have multiple different methods of dropping bombs already, including multiple different methods of dropping multiple bombs…. Was another keybind…. To drop bombs…. Necessary? Why couldn’t this have been integrated into existing bomb drop and/or multi-bomb drop settings and thus totally and completely remove the need for another bomb drop setting?

Missing settings

On top of all the settings provided so far, several of which are of mixed necessity, there are a few settings which seem to be missing.

Remove all aiming points - Does as it says on the tin, instead of having to remove the aiming points one at a time, there should just be a setting to wipe them all. Also could be a button on the map screen.

Unselect aiming point - you can select aiming points easily enough, but there doesn’t seem to be any way to unselect the aiming point, one must always be selected. This isn’t necessarily an issue, but might be edge cases where removing the aiming point would be ideal.

Better integration into existing systems

We have multiple pre-existing systems for dropping bombs onto targets and absolutely none of them work with aiming points and salvo release. Most notably CCRP and Ripple Quantity / Bomb Series.

CCRP has never worked with GBUs which has never made sense to me, especially after the introduction of a setting designed to disable CCRPs automatic release mode when needed. I do not see why this remains the case and why CCRP doesn’t work with aiming points. Set an aiming point, link the weapon, press & hold, CCRP handles the release. All integrated in a single seamless system.

This would require properly integrating glide bombs into CCIP and CCRP as currently they function as standard GBUs in both.

Likewise, we have an entirely new method for dropping multiple bombs onto the target, instead of integrating this with either or better yet, both, existing methods of dropping multiple bombs. Ripple Quantity and Bomb Series.

For Bomb Series, All should just drop 1 per target as the Salvo button does currently, with any preset amount below that just dropping the selected amount, whether this should always be first set or they should rotate through im not sure. But that can be decided later.

Ripple Quantity, this is where there is the most flexibility. As it is, ripple quantity needs improving, with bomb selection being rather lackluster currently (A suggestion to improve this). But with aiming points, and upon linking weapons, it could be changed to select 1 to 10 targets (or however many targets are currently set). This gives maximum flexibility. WIth S remaining to just drop on all targets set without having to think about count.

How dropping bombs on aiming points should work in my opinion:

  1. Set the Aiming points through the targeting pod or map
  2. Select your desired GNSS bomb
  3. Select “toggle weapon link to aiming point”
  4. Select Ripple quantity and select how many bombs you wish to drop (1 to 10 or S)
  5. Press & Hold “fire secondary weapon” giving the “weapon release permission” as it does with CCRP. When your weapon is in range to deploy, the selected number of bombs are released to the various aiming points.
    Could work with “automatic bomb release in CCRP mode” setting so that it just drops on demand. Instead of press & hold.
  6. Select “remove all aiming points” to clear the set aiming points ready for the next sortie if all targets were destroyed on the first pass.

This order of operations would be substantially better than what we have currently and would give players far more control. All whilst re-using existing settings and keybinds.

The Interface

The current interface is…. okay . The markers are clear both in RB and in the map and it seems to work fine for the most part. But there is room to improve.

The first is the link / unlink setting. This really needs to be made much much clearer in the top left UI panel. Add a really clear indicator whether or not your weapon is linked, maybe even have a “LINK #” with the hash being whichever aiming point is selected. It’s clear then whether or not your weapon is linked and clear which aiming point you are targeting with that setting.

The second goes beyond RB and into SB. The Aiming points are not visible. Rightfully so in SB, but don’t appear in any HUD or HMD and I don’t believe this would be accurate. Instead navigation markers or CCRP markers should be added where appropriate to indicate the locations of these aiming points. This enables the aiming point to be used as navigational aids within ASB, much in the same way you can use CCRP.

Other Improvements

What the Link and Unlink weapon does is really ambiguous and I think needs to be revised. It currently toggles between dropping on all and dropping onto one target. I think it would be better served as a toggle for the entire system, then use ripple quantity to select whether you want to drop on 1 target or multiple. With no ripple quantity selected and 1 bomb selected always going for the selected aiming point.

Currently, the system is limited to only 10 targets, but many aircraft can carry more than 10 GNSS weapons. Is there a reason for this limit or is it just arbitrary? If it can be increased, then it should be, as some aircraft can carry 28 GNSS weapons and maybe want to deploy them all at once (maybe a setting to enable increased count could be in order though, so you can limit it to less if you dont need infinite amount or have it tied directly to the number of GNSS bombs being carried, 10 or less, its 10. more than 10, its however many you have equipped)

Questions yet to be answered:

  1. What happens to aiming points when you respawn? Do they reset or remain? In gamemodes like ARB this is obviously irrelevant and potentially irrelevant in GRB as well, but in ASB…. It could change how this settings is used quite a bit

  2. Some aircraft have access to aiming points. Others do not. There doesnt really seem to be any clear indicator as to why or anything within the x-ray to indicate it. It is not related to the presence of GNSS weapons as the Tornado GR1 has access to Aiming points but the Jaguar GR1A does not. Both have CCIP and CCRP. The Buc S2B does but Buc S2 does not.
    It would be a rather useful setting to have even without GNSS for quickly cycling through some preset points for the targeting pod.

    So what is the criteria?

Related improvements.

The main function of this setting is to drop GNSS weapons on multiple targets, or multiple onto a single target. Meaning it is very unlikely you would then use the laser, as all released bombs would start going for that one target.

I have a separate post up for this, but it would be about time to enable the carriage of GNSS+SAL weapons without a targeting pod. Of course this creates limitations, but the upsides are pretty major

GBUs also need to be added to CCRP so they work correctly with automatic release.

Another area that has not yet been updated is CCIP and CCRP for glide weapons, they still operate as if the GBU being dropped didnt have wings and thus has far shorter range. One of the main types of weapons where you would want to use Aiming points would be glide GNSS bombs.

Likewise, standard GBUs can often travel far further than the CCIP point would indicate, and whilst I would leave the current aiming point as is, they could add a second ring denoting a reasonable distance the bomb can correct onto.

That is all the feedback I could come up with so far. I would love to hear back from everoyne else

3 Likes
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For missiles too right, it doesn’t just have to be for bombs right?

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I suppose yes, but that is an entirely separate thing, this is looking solely at the newly added aiming points and GNSS bombs. Not about Air to Air missiles and engaging multiple targets at once.

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Air to ground missiles

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I can set ripple of munitions, but for this I must have a bind. It is tedious.

There should be a configuration to loose the salvo upon being within effective range of all target points. As it stands at the moment, you could deploy a salvo across multiple points and not be within the effective range of some of them.

I’ll review this a bit more before commenting to a greater extent.

2 Likes
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oh I see, yes then.

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The markers are not great. They’re both distracting and unclear. The distance really needs the information after the decimal point cut off, it’s just excessive clutter. I would also move the number below the marker (e.g. #(count) - (dist)) to make it more concise. I would also change the colour to be less distracting, but I would have to consider this further. A square shape instead of the circle would also help draw the eye to it a bit better, whilst not being too distracting given that squares for targeting are a common design language in game.

I think this link / unlink setting may actually have a use case for IR/GNSS munitions. But it should not be necessary for laser/gnss weapons. The primary issue with IR munitions is that loosing the weapons takes time over just loosing GNSS weapons, that would be brought into parity by loosing at aim points with point track instead of a moving track. As these munitions acquire a tracking target after getting close, assuming the target hasn’t moved, it would make their deployment easier in a more contested air space whilst not really changing all too much in efficacy once loosed.

The extra binds would contribute some difficulty in just spamming the weapon, but bring it up to parity on usefulness as GNSS weapons (given current air defences, seems most destruction is gnss based). This would likely need to be limited to air, however, though I’m not sure how effective it would actually prove in ground. Though if it did prove effective, neat, more excuses for better AA.

I personally would move them to a context menu. The insistence on cycling things with minimal response in game proves really annoying under any level of threat. I would personally prefer a new bind for “manage aim points” create a small menu navigated with arrow keys to select a specific aimpoint. This resolves any possible faults with overcycling the available options and having to go back around (Would also add this to radars, ground radar being at the back is a pain). A lot of this game’s key bind creep could be resolved with moving a bunch of related options into context menus.

Aimpoints do not persist on respawn from my testing.

I do think there should be an option to ripple multiple weapons across the selected aimpoints. E.g. you’ve 10 aim points and you loose 2 bombs each. This could be aided by the option to set a limit or increase the limit on aim points. Unfortunately, this would likely require another keybind to achieve, but given the limited weight of the high count air to ground weapons, it could prove useful.

As it stands, 10 is a bit limiting on aircraft that can use more bombs but I do think we could make it useful to those aircraft via this proposal to loose multiple bombs at given target points. This benefit would primarily crop up on platforms that do not have ARMs but have plenty of GBUs to loose at static AAs (Read: Gripen). Ideally this ripple pattern would cycle through the given aim points to reduce the chance of a single missile destroying multiple bombs.

But even that aside, 10 is limiting purely because it means you have to go through the hassle of setting up another 10 points, contributing heavily to slowing down the release of weapons. At that point, you might as well loose them manually than set up these points.

This particular problem of slow set up also brings up it an inherent problem of the set up (one that could be helped by rippling weapons like spice) being the map is imprecise, and the targeting pods precision most of the time makes it more worthwhile to drop it from that view without aim points due to limits in range, outlined below:

Map Inadequacies

The map being imprecise could be helped by showing a faint outline behind the cursor of where your aim point is actually going to be placed, but that won’t actually address the issue. The fidelity of the map is just incredibly inadequate, even zoomed in. But to zoom the map in on the given point that you’re targeting, you’re taking time that could have been used to loose the weapon from a targeting pod. A more effective option would be the introduction of snapping aim points. Snapping aim points would ideally snapped to scouted marks, known enemy positions, or important points of interest.

This would resolve the issue of the imprecise nature of the map to some degree (not perfectly) and not really change much of the status quo. Scout marks are already bombed pretty immediately due to the target pod, and it would primarily come into air modes where enemy markers are shown or discovered. Weapons could precisely be targeted from the map from this known information providing more of a use to the new aim point system.

Targeting Pod and Aim Point Contradictions

Ideally, targeting pods and the new system would work cooperatively to build a better experience, with neither one particularly superseding the other. This is not the case, due to many oversights with this system’s introduction. With the targeting range set to 30km, and many of our new munitions being quite comfortable in this range, there’s very little incentive to employ aim points to use these weapons. One would think that aimpoints would aid with the deployment of weapons like gbu 39, and they do to an extent but that extent is hampered by the fact you are in a comfortable range (even if a bit slow) before you can accurately designate an aimpoint. This is assuming use in air, not ground, due to ground being well within the comfortable range and thereby not really worth the effort to add aim points.

This contradiction is very difficult to resolve for a number of reasons; the game would have to render further out, many weapons would still be reasonably launched from the target pod view without needing to deal with aim points, amongst other issues. The easiest solution is to extend the range targeting pods can measure/render to provide aircraft more of a buffer to set up aim points. Does not resolve the contradiction, but lessens it by providing more room to configure it before you’re too close to really bother. The reward this set up provides of accurate strikes from low altitude may balance out the remaining issues with this situation.

Alternatively, targeting pods could grant you more accurate markers from the map, that could snap to targets in the targeting view. I won’t entertain this one particularly on account of the balance issues but were it to be implemented, the functionality could be opened up to platforms dedicated to providing this information to a team in Sim. The functionality would also allow brief observation from altitude, and then accurate use of the map to provide aim points to the currently static known position. However, this would have some issues inherent to the concept that mean it really should not be considered over the above.

That aside, I am now very sleepy. I will re-read this for spelling/grammar issues when it is not 0300.

1 Like
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Didnt think about it from that PoV but I do see it. I was just thinking that they contrasted nicely to the current CCRP marker and so there isnt any confusion between CCRP and Aiming point.

Yeah that would be good too.

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Contrast is good, sometimes. But when everything else follows the idea that “targeting = square” a system that uses circles for targeting is a bit silly. I would argue that the addition of information below the mark and a distinct colour that separates it from our current targeting tools would be better and still be adequate contrast.

Spend an hour writing and I get a “yeah that’d be good” 😿

I jest.

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I dislike quote followed by paragraph followed by quote followed by paragraph, etc etc posts, that stretch on for eternity. So just responded to what I felt needed responding to. The rest of it I agree with and I dont think needs directly responding too because it stands on it owns

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I haven’t got good formatting tools here, sadly. Now, I pass out.

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Cannot generate aim points from ESM. Somewhat curious why implement this and then not integrate it into the other system being added.

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Not really: RWR and ESM can only determine direction of an emitter, and its strength - which however isn’t precise and accurate enough to determine the actual distance to it.

So with this information it’s impossible to actually determine an exact point on the map.

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Both the Rafale and Typhoon I think can do this

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This functionality should be present on Rafale and Typhoon, at minimum. There is a case also to be made for Gripen but I am less sure of it.

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The F-16 can do this too, using the HTS pod.