Let me try to translate for him: the point is that the Italian playerbase has been “extracted” so well that only the best of the best are willing to stand the ground. Being good at practically any tree, these players inflate the stat of top tier Italian vehicles to an exaggrated degrees that gaijin is misinterpreting these stats.
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This game despite how much fun it is , is sadly Russian propaganda product.
It is always Soviet tech tree being ahead with everything . Soviet tanks are actually only tanks in the game with tiny weakspots where other tanks have tripple the size of the weakspots. It also super strange that only Russian reactive armor is so good vs kinetic ammunition , while NATO is useless garbage . I think if gaijin would be transparent saying ok we know NATO tanks are stronger , therefore we added some feature like no spalling on Russian tanks to keep them competetive , community would be fine with this. Instead Gaijin is trying to convince us its Russians having super good equipment and NATO is just bad…
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The key difference between the argument of you two is that:
Pizza argues that the unbalanced uptier of vehicles only kept the most skilled
You argues that the unbalanced uptier of vehicles has driven away the most skilled
Either of the argument makes sense, but I believe he has a point on Italian top tier. Players who made it this far are either those who, 1) Italian citizens, 2) People who have deep interest in the Italian military or its culture(such as Rome, or someone who tries to Rome 2.0), and 3) Those who enjoyes the Italian playstyle.
And to defend your points, those who may leave the matchmaker are 1) The nomads, who just enjoyed the game as a whole, and wanted a taste of the tree. 2) Those who aims to challenge their skills, and 3), those who felt they are not skilled enough to play the Italian top tier or are frustrated by their poor performance.
There are a lot more factors. I exclusively play minor trees in the forseeable past.
Now, why do I believe he has a point? When I see Italian players in top tier, they are most likely on the top third of the scoreboard. This meant that those who are capable did indeed stay because of 1) Their willingness to challenge themselves, or 2) Their desire to play as Italy, either the desire of the culture or if they are Italian, patriotism towards the nation.
I often found myself in a map which I might not vibe in, or in an unfavorable situation, yet I was able to pull the skill together and make it out - sometimes. For Italy top tier, a BR which no armor is ever considered, we therefore value positioning and chance taking more than most trees in the game.
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The job of the guys on the bug report forums is to forward the bugs to developers. If they refuse to do that, it is completely reasonable to raise this problem to next Gaijin representative. Even if none of these people are the actual coders. Jfc do you mean that I should dox the coders of gaijin and report the bug straight to them?
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If you dont have info on other tanks spall liner dont add it only to T90 giving an unfair advantage, you add it alongside other tanks in a single update, the russian favoritism is pretty obvious…
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I appear to have mis-read what you wrote, my apologies.
Most of this is not terribly relevant, IMO, because all the same discussion still applies within that demographic. So, like, who is more likely to play an underpowered vehicle:
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Someone with a lot of patriotism and patience and who likes the playstyle of the whole tech tree, is better than average, but who is bad at telling which vehicles are good relatively for an Italian main?
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Someone with ALSO a lot of patriotism and patience and who likes the playstyle of the whole tech tree and who is better than average, but who also is good at telling which vehicles are good relatively for an Italian main?
Probably the first one, because all those traits also apply to them playing the next vehicle to the right of it at the same BR range, also in Italy, also patriotic, also the similar playstyle, etc., but it’s overpowered and this one is underpowered, and the more skilled guy will notice it more often.
Hi, many of your reports have been forwarded and fixed.
Hmmm, lets see.
107 bugs reported. 11 marked as ‘fixed’. 4 of these were for global crashes, 4 were for trivial map/loadout errors. 3 were fixed, 1 is broken again. 15 ‘not a bug’… but 5 actually are bugs. 5 acknowledgements which are still broken after more than a year. A few were ‘user error’.
and then we have this gem : Community Bug Reporting System
Which after my comment resulted in nearly all my remaining open bug reports closed by KnightsoftheAbyss for no reason. which iirc were about 20. Many of these are still issues in game. A few have since been fixed.
I hadn’t looked at the bug reporting website for nearly a year now… but apparently nothing has changed. I messaged Smin and didn’t bother to check for a reply.
107 reports for 2 fixes tells anyone that the bug reporting system is fundamentally broken. and your mods are more interested in being on a unmoderated power trip than fixing the game.
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For top tier, there are no relative good vehicles for Italy players, period.
Arietes: practically zero armor, mobility barely better than the merkava. Now it has another 5 tons of weight for paper armor.
OTOMATIC: inferior against fixed wings, limited gimmick as a heli hunter, 12 rounds of APFSDS that is only as good as the rooikat 76 one.
KF41: horrible autocannon and APS that almost never works, minimal ranges of SPIKEs
A129D: inconsistent spike, despite two other helicopters share the same issues, it has the lowest zoom.
AV-8B: subsonic kills the chat.
Centauro: the only good one out of the list with its quick reload and insane firepower compared to other lights.
So, even if a player who can tell which is better and which is worse, there are no other choices. They have no other choices but to play these vehicle, which is likely to result in them carrying entire teams of incompetent major players with good stats.
Now this is where the divergence of you two: you argue most players who takes the choice to not to, he argues that there are no other choices. There are lower BR vehicles that are overpowered and you know that: you seems to have a lot of fun in in the semovente.
But what if they are there for the top tier only? That discussion about lower tier deviates from our topic and it is undeniable that every full lineup of Italy outside of its top tier is competitive to a degree.
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If liners are going to be destructible (for gameplay reasons) then it should probably be divided into sections like ERA or BB armour plates, since it wouldn’t logically destroy the whole liner given the size of most penetrators, of course just how small those sections should be will be up for debate depending on engine limitations
In theory yes, in gameplay, arguably everyone aims for the same place in ground battles - the weakspots, it would mean that destroy only one of the liners are enough.
Relative to one another, not relative to the broader field of the game. Most people don’t just have 7 different nations grinded to top tier or whatever no-big-deal… or even if they do, if they’re working on their 8th, they need to keep playing THAT one to progress in THAT one.
So when I’m talking about people moving to or from some vehicle based on it being OP or UP, the choice I am talking about is almost always between this vehicle vs another one in the same nation around the same BRs.
If none of the other top tier Italian vehicles are better or worse than this top tier Italian vehicle, then they are just already balanced probably. You can’t meaningfully discuss whether “UN-balanced” vehicles follow a positive vs a negative feedback loop when looking at already balanced vehicles.
Well, we see the problem here. Not every battle is a Roman civil war between Ceasar, Charlamange, and Konstantin XI, and Mussolini(let’s say, he tried). Yes the choices between these vehicles are kinda balanced and dependent on the map, at the cost that it is inferior to other nations and some of them offering horrendous stats. Yes, a lot of them offer a lot of dopamine, and the adrednal rush pushing a Centauro while massacring oblivious Russia-German enemy team is something I would never find elsewhere in the game. But at the end of the day, Italy is one of the most discriminated trees in the game.
I am trying to read something positive from your argument, but my poor English skill basically see between the lines: “accept the fate that Italy sucks.”.
That’s just because of average team skill in Italy being high, which is 1) A whole different topic than “positive vs negative feedback loops” we were just discussing, and 2) A good thing, that needs to be included in balancing, see: Responding to issues regarding dev server reports & an update on spall lining armor from the developers - #292 by A_Cute_Chihuahua and much of the discussion following that.
The quick summary of the stuff after that post is that you cannot do it objectively any other way than by win rates, because nobody has a reasonable objective algorithm for how to type in 100 variables from stat cards and armor models alone and get a power rating in the game that makes sense. But when you use win rates, it inherently involves the drivers’ average skills, so there’s no getting around them for that reason either
So balancing with team skill taken into account (the reason Italian vehicles feel weak):
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Is more fun because it’s the only way to have a nation team based game (in GRB at least) that has roughly 50/50 chances for each team going into a match, and 50/50 is what humans find fun in games
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Has no viable alternative method, since nobody’s invented an algorithm that fully compares vehicles accurately without gameplay results being used.
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Now, this is the problem, or, a dilemma faced by many game developers. Emperical analysis can only go so far and surveying certain players is a job harder than maintaining the game itself. Yet when the balancings are done everyone are kinda balanced, with someone meta and someone okay. Italy in war thunder is not the case, due to its notorius reputation given by the community and a stigma for actually understanding the tree.
I felt more offended by people laughing at minor nation mains rather than the fact that Italy is bad, because I believe that players should be respected with the choices they take. Whenever someone asks should I play X or should I buy the premium X, the player base immideately saying terms such as Britain solid shots poor speed Italy paper armor only ww2 fun France no stabilizer bad crew layout yada yada. A lot of these perspectives are already wrong, but making a tree actually competent and making its vehicle stand a chance against the others probably will correct this.
Iana and Jager in siege, Seer in apex legends, and the Negev in counter strike are all favored by their mains for their good and/or unique role. Even nerfed, they have their significance in their games over the always mid characters or weapons. Yet, those games players would often so much adress the roles of peoples who dedicates themselves to playing the support or the objective, as this is outside their ring of comfort. What can Italy offer to a GRB match? Laughter and probably never empathy. In top tier a handful of MBTs can flank with relative ease as well so a centauro 120 or OTOMATIC is welcomed but it only takes a good player to make an impact - well, people who has the guts to take the tree to its pinnacle in such a meh tree can probably drop ten nukes a day once they get used to actually good vehicles and plays them.
Italy was never that significant after a few months off launch and the community only made it harder. Players who through whatever reason grinded any minor tree in the game should not be faced with disapproval and sarcasm. Once another day people acted as if me having 250+ British vehicles is a tough struggle, while most of my grinds are actually quite fun.
The Italian MBT is below average. Its turret armor can be easily penetrated by DM23 at 11.7. This does not exist on other MTBs. It is significantly lower than other vehicles. At the same time, its speed is not fast enough, and the gun scope magnification is also low. Not good enough. This is a kind of discrimination.
At the same time, the team thing you mentioned is not true. After all, you usually don’t see Italian players in a game. If you meet it, it’s just one person. They can’t influence the winning rate of the game, they can only influence their own KD.
Everyone knows that Italy is at an abnormal level. Only you think this level is normal. Then it can be understood that your game level is far lower than the public
The Italian MBT is below average.
The same comment you just replied to is already a reply to what you wrote now… “[Yes I know], that’s because the average skill of the Italian team is higher” and so on, rest of comment.
This is a kind of discrimination.
Yes, which is necessary, for the two bullet pointed reasons already in the comment you literally just replied to (but seem to have not read)
They can’t influence the winning rate of the game
How do I, one person, have a 66% win rate then? BR changes only require probably 1-2% by comparison.
Don’t you know that the winning rate is controlled through the overall data matching mechanism?
This has nothing to do with you personally. For example, the ranking winning rate in DOTA2 is infinitely close to 50%.
By the way, your winning rate is only the result of using powerful gold-coin vehicles to crush your opponent in the bottom stage of the room division, and it’s still in arcade mode.
You haven’t reached level 100 yet. It turns out you are a novice. I just found out.
Oh, I also noticed that your highest level vehicle is 2S1. You have played it 15 times in total.
Since you have never played it, how do you evaluate the top vehicles?
Oh, your cheating software is very useful.
I’ve already reported you
You are a shameless cheater. Disgusting.
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/144225517198111266
How do you explain your replay video?
A disgusting game cheater
dota uses personal ELO for matchmaking which enforces 50% win rates on an individual level. War Thunder does not, it only enforces 50% win rates at a team level.
So an individual can easily get way far away from 50% by just being better (or worse) than his teams by a significant amount, completely unlike dota
In any case, none of that has to do with the actual topic of conversation. The 50% win rate for Italy as a team is AFTER the algorithm has canceled out their performance, not BEFORE, nor changing the fact that they’re more skilled. A competition level pro dota player having a 50% win rate doesn’t change that he’s much more skilled than a newbie with also a 50% win rate. That’s just AFTER the algorithm has adjusted for their skill…