the trailer affects maneuvering, you can’t neutral steer anymore which is extremely important for a churchill to be able to do. It’s not a big enough downside to warrant tiering them separately but the crocodile is objectively worse than the normal VII
To put it simply and bluntly - a heavy tank which throws away all of its potential mobility and maneuverability should intentionally be tiered where it is frontally immortal to all but things like the Dicker Max/Sturer Emil/Derp Artillery. Otherwise what is the point of all that armor beyond dead weight?
A KV-1 ZiS-5 or T14 or Excelsior are objectively just better because those can MOVE when the round requires them to do so.
And that makes it certain I will never bother buying that thing.
I dont think there is a br where that is the case. Well, maybe reserve. Even at 2.0, it would still face stuff with the 75mm that can pen.
at 1.0 it would be invincible frontally to pretty much everything except british guns, but it’s a british tank so it doesn’t have to deal with that
to bully people with senrai maidens pfps and make them complain
Well, if he wants to put it at 1.0, then he can beg for that.
Im tempted just so i can bully with it lol.
I’d feel bad bullying reserve tier with the VII I won’t lie to you.
At 4.7 the Churchill VII in a full downtier is only just barely able to shrug off most common rounds from the majority of opponents.
Frankly, I would place the thing at 4.0 even with the new M61 APHE shell. I would give the Mk III its missing applique armor plating, M86 APHE, and APDS, then switch the places of the Mk VII and Mk III, as the III is more mobile than the VII, would have similar armor, would reload faster, and would penetrate way more armor. As for the NA75, that thing is a 3.3 heavy - its worse than the KV-1 L-11 or ARL-44 ACL-1 because it cannot move much by comparison.
The Churchill Mk I I would put back down to 3.0 where it sat for years, and naturally also move the 3-inch Gun Carrier back down to 2.7 similarly (while also adding that thing’s missing 12-pdr CPBC and 12-pdr SAP rounds as its using an old WW1 naval gun).
The Excelsior with a gun that actually works is also easily 4.7 material now. Unlike a Churchill, but like a KV-1 L-11 or ARL-44, that thing can actually MOVE.
Churchills not only crawl forward, they also have sluggish to zero maneuverability AND no reverse speed. So literally the moment their armor stops working they become completely and totally worthless.
Genuinely awful idea, the Churchill III, barely worth 4.0 as it is now, can still be EXTREMELY bullying in the right circumstances.
I want you to know that giving the british 6 pounder its APHE would genuinely slopify the entire early tech tree. This is a terrible idea, not only because the 6 pounder is already an EXCELLENT gun, but also because it would just kill whatever uniqueness that part of low tier britain has left.
They’re actually quite good at neutral steering, which is something you can really take advantage of.
The Churchill III hasn’t bullied anyone since the repeated mass downtiering of the long-barrel Panzer IVs. Unless of course you equate “bullying” with “cannot frontally pen” outside using specific derp & glass cannon TDs or god forbid actually loading APCR.
Nor has the German premium clone either ever since teams got thoroughly homogenized.
Yeah no. Unlike the 17-pounder or 20-pdr or 32-pdr/QF 3.7" guns, the 6-pounder simply often lacks the postpen to reliably obliterate or sufficiently cripple things. All the repeated neutering of APCR and first-generation APDS to appease people whining about those rounds penning the thickest armor they could conceivably see despite being literally built to do that ensures that even IF 6-pdr APDS finally materialized in the main game after sitting unused on the CDK for years, it would be worth absolute fuck all.
M86 APHE is an American shell yes, but millions of shots of it were shipped to the British to use. Furthermore, British 6-pdr APDS was fired by American 57mm M1 airborne teams during Bulge, heavily implying the rounds are fully cross-compatible between guns. Britain also actually operated all but one T18E2 Boarhound in North Africa.
The “uniqueness” aspect is long dead - when the difference between solid AP and even smaller APHE is as massive as it currently is (which only was made wider still after the community vote to not even test realistically modeled APHE), and the gun could fire the round, there literally IS no counter-argument left at this point that is remotely valid.
Snail just gave the British 75 an American shell it could fire because it was already firing the same thing filler-removed. That precedent makes British 6-pdr APHE an eventuality and not an outlier.
Depends on the model. The Mark 1, sure. The Mark 3, sorta. The Mark 7 and Black Prince are iffy, though at least the latter has usable reverse speed.
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When you outreload pretty much everything you see your post pen matters a bit less. You have to remember that the 6 pounder reloads on par with a sherman and with MUCH better ballistics and pen. The six pounder is an excellent gun, this community just has APHE brainrot.
And yet the German 50mm gun frequently will do far more postpen while reloading even faster still. Nevermind the Russian 57mm or occasional American 57mm when someone uses one of the few tanks armed with it. It may have had that advantage years ago but these days not really.
The brainrot isn’t even APHE, its the insistence on killing crew to kill tanks instead of “one pen, one kill” like real tanks operated that’s really at fault paired with fantasy repairing of all nonlethal damage.
The t-34-57 is the first actually good t-34, yes.
License built 6 pounder this still proves my point.
and despite this you don’t see very many panzer 3 Ls or Ms or J1s.
ok let’s be honest, is getting shot in the engine killing you instantly good game design? There are sacrifices to realism that have to be made for the game to be enjoyable to play.
The 76mm ones are hardly bad except maybe the first one, and only then if you insist on needing to frontally pen everything you meet.
Rather it shows just how much of a gulf exists between solid shot and APHE on the same gun. If either APHE was reduced to the slightly wider solid AP cone it really was OR solid AP was artificially enhanced further to where the difference was minimal, nobody would be complaining about it.
But alas, here we are. I can imagine the screaming hitting a fever pitch if Snail ever added the T49 GMC (a Baby Hellcat with the US 57mm on it essentially).
The 17-pdr, 20-pdr, 32-pdr, and 3.7" gun all have enough postpen to actually not need APHE.
I was thinking any pen in the crew compartment specifically, but the fact that even Simulator mode doesn’t operate on this logic and still has the idiotic kill camera is downright criminal.
The average idiots voted in lockstep with their favorite CCs and shot down the APHE correction, then made the gap between APHE and solid even worse than it was. All we can do is adapt to it at this point.
the cromwell is better than a t-34-76 in every way that matters. they are VASTLY overrated and low tier soviets as a whole are only good because of volumetric.
the first objectively correct thing you’ve said throughout our entire exchange. APHE is fucking ridiculous and solid shot needs to either be buffed with ricochet calculations or APHE needs to get nerfed. Cupola shots are awful game design and so many of the low tier maps reward them for no reason (ignoring the current state of low tier being infested with sweats grinding for the ho-ri).
These days the Cromwell V is indeed better than the T-34/76 in many respects. Fast and fast reload with a gun that actually kills now.
No need for insults.
The community voted to clutch their pearls, then whined when a few of those pearls proceeded to choke their throats.
At this point it’s far more realistic in terms of effort to push for making all other shell types be similarly “deliberately overtuned” to where the gap between them is reduced.
Cupola shots as well as all forms of cannon barrel damage are indeed cancerous game mechanics, as is the average idiot’s obsession with “if I can’t frontally pen it with the weakest gun it can possibly encounter in a normal match it must be OP because I can’t possibly have just picked the wrong vehicle!” continues to gut many heavy tanks regardless of tree.
And yes I have never seen more Chi-Tos rolling around than now. But at least they’re easy as hell to kill.
the cromwell 1 was always better than the t-34-76.
of course the jagdpanther player would say this. Barrels should arguably be even easier to kill given they’re, by far, the flimsiest part of the tank irl.
I play 4.7 (and did before the VII got its APHE), and it’s miserable. LITERALLY every game is against japan, most of the players are the biggest sweats you’ve ever seen, and I can guarantee 85% of them are never playing the ho-ri for more than 2 weeks after they unlock it
Resorting to stat-shaming I see. Of course the insults come out when you run out of logic in an argument but your ego refuses to concede.
Most of my Jagdpanther games were many years ago, back when I was actively grinding Tier IV-V German tanks the thing was my preferred uptier insurance. Thus I used it near constantly due to how frequently 6.7-7.0 was being fed to T-54/Is-3/IS-6/L7 HEATFS. At the time it had its un-nerfed 700hp engine and flew around the map.
My opinion on barrel damage did begin from playing that thing so heavily, but what really hardened it was not that - it was playing the likes of the T95, Ferdinand, Tortoise, Black Prince, Churchill VII, Churchill III, 3-inch Gun Carrier, Jagdtiger, Maus, Object 268, IS-3, IS-4M, Ho-Ri Proto, Ho-Ri Production, and of course the T32s.
If a player cannot frontally pen the actual armor of what they frontally run into, they made a mistake, and should not get a “get outta jail free card” should the thing they run into also not whiff their shot.
I’m not statshaming you, I’m saying your opinions are biased because barreling is the only way a lot of things can actually do anything to a jagdpanther frontally. Also my stats are quite literally better than yours if you want to go that far. Getting a barrel shot out is necessary counterplay to a lot of tanks, even if it is annoying. Removing that mechanic would make light tanks even worse for no reason and make the easiest nations in the game even easier to play because they have less counterplay now.