the fake panther 2 was a mistake should not have been added all we need is the 75MM panther 2 with its proper turret and heavy tanks cant do everything as they do not have the mobility to be everywhere and cap points mediums do have there place and its easier to dispatch heat monsters with more mobility harder to flank
yak 141 was missing a lot of avionics that it never got its a unfinished prototype and same thing panther 2 and E100 both where unfinished prototypes
sounds to me as two contradicting things.
Panther 2 with Panther G turret was never intended not tested nor used, i doubt it would even turn as rings on hull and turret must be different.
Either way its as fictional as panther 2 ingame, and the worst part? It won’t be any different from panther G.
they have things to compensate it. Most medium tanks on those BRs are mediocre and poorly perform against heavy tanks.
they dont need to be everywhere, they need to destroy enemies and not let enemies come closer to points ever again. And they do that mostly.
well i see it fly both as VTOL and regularly, so i doubt there were lack of avionics. There was lack of armanment tho.
this 75MM turret
the PANTHER F turret was made off this one
its a half finished prototype similar to E100
HORI both are paper so giving germany mostly completely prototype is fine
also this would perform fine At 6.7 as it has the option of getting HL234 engine which makes 1150HP which would make it quite speedy allowing it to flank heavys and armor enough to be still decent when angled
As well as the GT101…
A gas turbine heh
so… its said even here it was not even created… That 75mm cannon with turret is as fantasy as 88mm turret.
was that turret the prototype for shmalshturm tho? Or was the panther F`s shmalshturm a base for that one?
Id love to see how it went, as i see the existing turret of pather F being at least produced.
and are added as jap tree has like… least amount of tanks ingame?
Compared to german tree that twice as big even without those.
Tho i think they will remove Ho-Ri`s as soon as add subtrees for Japan, as they already did with Ryukai’s - the R2Y2 series. So if you want to be smart, go for it.
And “almost completed”? No turret of panther 2 was ever completed. So almost completed is a bit of exageration.
panther A would perform good at 6.7, that`s german players who would underperform much. Panther is good opponent for a Pershing, but the Pershing sits 6.7, and Panther at 6.0
panther A outruns most of the medium tanks of 6.0-6.7. Earlier it easily outran the M18 Hellcat. Never hepled Germans.
how`s that the germany must have all good things in tank to be “decent”?
This thread is being completely derailed and I shouldn’t really contribute to it, but I just wanted to say that I don’t think the Panthers are as good as you claim. I use them a lot and I think I do reasonably well in them, by all means they’re good units to play, but they’re not at 6.0 because of their players (Dauphine and T-V are also at 6.0). The meta is configured in a way that makes their strengths a bit less relevant. I emphasise “a bit”.
Most engagements in WT happen very up close these days, so the extra penetration of the KwK 42 is less useful compared to the extra post penetration damage you get by using guns with less anemic calibres - the Soviet 85mm or the Tiger’s 88mm with the big filler round. If we’re talking usability at 6.7, a shot through the MG port of a T34 is a guaranteed OHK if you’re in a Tiger and you’re using the right ammunition, while in a Panther, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.
Then there’s the mobility aspect. Sure, the forward mobility of the Panthers is pretty good, but their reactive mobility is very bad. Shoot and scoot, reverse, even quick pivots often needed in city maps or to fight around caps are not really going to save you because you have the armour layout of a tank destroyer, so any angling beyond 5° is gonna end you.
And finally, their targeting speed is bad. This is a huge minus.
The Panther is the king of superficial stats, great pen, great hull front armour, good nominal top speed, but it’s held back by other factors, which is why it’s low in BR despite those high profile stats.
Generally speaking imho the Tiger E at the same BR is a better flanker and brawler, while the Panthers are better snipers, but sniping will not win you any match in Ground RB. You can still make it work, I’m not saying they’re bad, just that they’re not exceptional.
M26 is overtiered at 6.7, should be 6.3, the three late Panthers are fine at 6.0.
that`s not the case tho as they are balanced after their german counterparts. For example, the KV-1B is much more effective than the KV-1E, but they are balanced one after another.
ah, but i compare Panther to a mediums from 5.7 (as no other country has 6.0 medium tanks, at leasti just dont remember any, except Israel) and 6.7 mediums like T-44 and Pershing. And to the point it looks like Panther is a good counterpart to them 6.0 rather than 5.7.
For example, the Panther mobility is easilly better than Sherman one. And Pershing one. It is as good as t-44s. But then the T-44 has much better armored hull and a bit less armored turret. It has worse penetration and fire rate.
Pershing on the other hand still has less penetration (tho not so sufficient, the 185 and 192) and worse mobility, claiming better armored turret and a bit better armored hull (that Panther still manages to penetrate, and the Pershing suffers to penetrate Panther`s hull). So… Idk?
Panther was always a good choise for any distance, and in a way it looks much stronger than Shermans and t-34-85s.
but any other tank`s reverse mobility is aint that better. Shermans and 34s have 1kmh better reverse speed. Brits have worse reverse speed. Pershing has better one, and i dont remember the rear speed of t-44.
And the turn rate? The panther with planetary transmission is easy one of the best to maneuver. At least as i remember it.
I strongly agree. But keeping that in mind - which of medium 5.7-6.0 tanks CAN say that they at least have the armor in front?
Either the Sherman or the T-34-85, they can angle, but it wont matter in any way. As their frontals are as weak as panther`s side.
On the contrary, the T-44 is basically the Panther with 85mm cannon - good hull, bad turret, tho it can angle a bit more than panther. And it`s 6.7
is it tho?
the A version has great turret rotation speed, and vertical aim speed is as bad as others. G and F are at worse there, but not that they are panther D. They lack stab, but they have great suspension making it easy to shoot with short breaks. So, in a way you`re right - them have a bit worse aim speed. But its not radical.
one of which i find is german players. Same way they made the Panzer 4s at 4.0, they keep the Panthers lower than they could actually be. Im not saying that 6.7 is the BR of pather, but i tend to think the Panther feels better at 6.7 than t-34-85, a bit worse feeling than Pershing.
well, taking that gaijin at least moved them to 6.0, i tend to agree that they became somewhat balanced. At least they are considered better than shermans and 34-85s.
This entire sentence is false.
Yet more proof that the human mind fails. Panther doesn’t have a single planetary gear set in its transmission, only in the steering mechanism (which WarThunder doesn’t actually model so this genuinely does not matter), and the neutral steering it has is not fast. The only exception is Jagdpanther.
I doubt that they’re not balancing them by statistics as well, but since they’re unlikely to come out and tell us, let’s put a question mark on that point.
That’s fair. The thing for me though is that the game’s classification of vehicles is only really useful when you’re talking about spawn points. Other than that, it’s purely indicative.
The Tiger is a “heavy” but it does not play like a breakthrough tank, it’s more like a heavy cruiser tank in the game. The Panthers to me mostly feel like turreted tank destroyers. They hard-counter armour but are out of their depth at brawling.
There’s also the lineup aspect to consider. You get X map, what vehicle should you spawn, Tiger or Panther? Etc etc
Centurion. IRL, a much better design than the Panther, but in-game the Panther is flattered and some of the Centurion’s advantages are missing, so they end up being fairly even I’d say. There’s also the Charioteer for Britain/Sweden, and the M4 T26 for the Americans, though arguably that’s also a tank destroyer pretending to be a medium - it’s a hull down monster more than an exploitation tank.
The M-51s are all 6.3 now, also.
Acceleration in a straight line between the Panther A and the M26 is almost identical, you can see this in test drive. Spawn in test drive, activate CC3, and check speed when the tank reaches the white line denoting the cap in front of you. M26 gets there at 29km/h, Panther A at 30km/h.
Same test with the Sherman (Hell) gets me to the line at 32km/h.
T-34-85 (1945) gets there at 33km/h. I cannot test-drive the T-44, but the T-44FM gets to the white line at 36km/h. Of course it is slightly lighter than the regular T-44 because of the turret, by roughly 600kg, but you’re still likely pulling ahead of the Panther A. Even the T-34-100 does better than the Panther A, reaching 33km/h shortly before the line but then dropping to 32km/h on the line (I guess it hits a bump and it’s more affected by it?).
And better performance against angles, and better post-penetration damage, and a lower profile, making it on the whole a much better brawler and flanker.
And the .50.
Like I said, the Panther has the armour profile of a TD. No Pershing player who knows what they’re doing is going to bother to shoot your UFP. They will shoot the flat turret face poking behind the curved mantlet, or just the turret face if you’re in the F. If they’re not confident of making that shot for whatever reason, taking out your gun barrel and tracking you with the .50 is the way to go. Even if they don’t track you, where’s a barreled Panther going?
The strong UFP of the Panther is there to punish rushed shots or the first poorly aimed shot at long distances, it’s part of why it’s a good sniper package, but when you’re up close (and you need to be if you want to win) it will not save you. You have to work around your weaknesses instead.
Shermans yes, T-34-85s have -8km/h. Both are better brawlers in any case - the stabiliser for the Sherman and the much better targeting speed for the T-34-85, which also has more HE filler and good angled performance, mean that if you have players of equal skill, usually the Sherman and the T-34-85 will get the first shot off.
Very true.
I think -9km/h.
No planetary on Panthers.
T-34-85 turns slightly faster. Not sure about the others, but combined with the gun handling, it’s certainly more awkward for a Panther to respond to a new unexpected threat.
The Shermans yes, their hulls are not really survivable. The T-34-85s though have better upper hull side armour than the Panther and can sidescrape much more effectively, a very useful tactic on urban maps or when brawling around caps. They also have much trollier armour because of the usual phenomena of desync and weird interactions between volumetric and angles. The Panther A and G also benefit from this to a lesser extent – they have the curved mantlet which is a volumetric nightmare – but the whole of the T-34 is like that.
The T-44’s upper hull is exceptional. With even a slight bit of angling it can and does bounce even the Pz.Gr.43 of the Jagdtiger. Turret is weaker but sometimes trolly, like the Panthers’ mantlet. The Panther’s UFP is great, but definitely more vulnerable to the opponents it has at 6.0 than the T-44’s at 6.7.
I’m not saying it’s radical, they’re good tanks. I’m just saying that the meta heavily favours tanks that can get the first shot off and make themselves difficult to hit in the process (brawling) because that’s what you have to do to contest an objective. The Panther will not usually get the first shot off. The A as you say has the best gun handling out of the lot, and it’s still behind most of its competition.
Look, let me put it this way.
Around September I was very much in a Panther mood, so I ended up playing a lot of 6.0, as one does. The VK features here too because I use it at 6.0 when I want to pretend I’m an M18. I did fine, I think.
But also, there’s nothing particularly abnormal about these stats. That’s a 2.1 K/D with the Panther A, 2.6 with the Panther F, and 2.8 with the VK.
Now compare the K/D I got between October and today by playing the Tiger IIs and the Jagdtiger at 7.0 (uptiering them to play with a friend):
Respectively 3.34, 3.62 and 3.25.
The point I’m trying to make seemed clearer in my head before I started writing this last part, so let me try and explain myself better.
I am a somewhat experienced player in these vehicles. If the Panthers were really so grossly undertiered at 6.0, you would expect me to do much better in them, than I do by playing two heavies and a heavy TD above their own BR ranges.
Instead, they are within what you might call a standard deviation. Good, not bad, not exceptional, at least in my hands.
Did not find it to be true, really. I play Panthers quite a bit, I just don’t feel they have any advantage here.
Panther feels horrible mobility-wise. At 6.0 I’m doing better in Su-100. It has no turret, but it moves with more vigour still.
With Panther I avoid caps and any spots where turning is required.
I keep distance, cause I know up close I’ll get outmaneuvered, lack of reverse plays a big part in this.
Armor is nice, but everybody shoots the turret anyway, and turret is the weakspot. Panther F has some survivability because you have cone-shaped mantlet in the middle, but that’s it.
I find Panthers to die way more reliably compared to T-34 where some edge/joint of armor will manage to eat my shell more often than not.
Panther at 6.7 would be hilariously bad, as it gets reliably roflstomped by basically everything at that BR, which at this point has way superior maneuvrability, gun handling and better guns.
T-44 has WAY smaller turret weakspot and you can cover most of the tank with 3 bushes. And T-44 85mm cannon will 1-shot almost everything it penetrates.
These were added like 10 years ago
Will you tell what`s false you find here?
it does turn with both tracks, so it does have a planetary mechanism. I may not accurete on where does it position, but im pretty sure that you understood what i meant by that.
well, i may agree that they use their stats aswell. But keeping in mind that they ask if they missed some “clones” (funny how they add 1000 clones and then forget to balance some of them), and based on fact that we as for now dont have any similar machines sitting on different battle ratings (M4 747 has better stats than m4a2 as it battles agains worse cannons, yet it is balanced after the american brother for example. Or the churchull 3 in german and britain), its safe to say they do balance clones after their originals.
i quoted only that one, but all other previous points sure are valid as well. Panther classified as Medium sure does set it up in quite a strange position.
However, keeping that in mind, the Panther as good as medium as it is good as heavy tank and tank destroyer. It can flank, it can braw, it can snipe. Medium tanks of others are usually lack some of that - sherman is good for brawling as has stab, but a bad sniper. t-34-85 is good flanker, but bad sniper and so-so brawler.
Pershing is another good example. Its cannon does not let you snipe everyone, so it better played in CQC or at middle distances. It can be a flanker, but it`s not so mobile. ect.
And the panther, at least as i like to play it, is pretty good at everything. It can brawl as has armor, it can flank as has decent speed, worse than some light tanks but can compete with 34s on some distances. It can snipe as ballistics and pen are good. Its overall great, not too overpowered at 6.0 tho.
And its also good at any map. Depending on map, you choose different playstyle, and panther fits them all.
yes, the one. It also a good medium. It has great pen and fast fire rate, tho it has limited speed. I almost feel that it can run better than 38kmh. But it does not…
Its also comfortable, a great opponent for panther, i suppose. But the ammunition makes it sometimes less effective, and sometimes more effective.
but its 6.3. no?
tho i believe we all agree that it`s somewhat worse than Panther
Huh? Was there another engine nerf for panthers?
well, agreed to that, may safely tell it`ll be at best 31km/h, but likely 33 for regular t-44.
yes, thats a valid. Tho it`s turret a much worse thing
i will argue that it makes it a bette brawler as it just makes it harder to shoot to cupolas xD
ah, but teh may miss on a mid distance, or hit there with a 3rd person or if scared. So that should be considered.
Nowere, tho the Panther can easy make the same shot to pershing (maybe even easier as pershing has bigger compensator on the barrel). And if the Pershing meets the, lets say, M50, it can just pen its hull with a oneshot.
and when you see the panther moving to you, you usually end up in a rush)
well it still easier to destroy than the panther, especially frontally if you try to bounce some shots.
Shermans yes, 34s? Depends. They have worse stabilization as they have Christie`s suspension. If the players meet on speed, usually the Panther has better chances to shoot. Both on the move and from a short stop.
But it does utizile two tracks for turning. 34-85s dont
i may be biased as i started on panthers and then moved on to others, but i strongly believe panther always had a better turn rate. Especially as it turned on the spot
yes, but arguably the difference is considered uneffective. And also to consider the size of a pather`s side, its easier to shoot…
No doubt. Panther can bounce the tiger 2 shot sometimes, and the pointy-nose jagdtiger shot also, but angling it is highly risky, i agree
thats why i think Panther is a good brawler, as considered it`s gun stability on move and short stops, it usually has a chance to shoot first.
no doubt, thats some great numbers here
well, they are far higther than 2.0, which is also abnormal by itself. As mainly ppl do less than 1kd, so anything 1kd+ i consider great. and closenss to 3kd is super good.
For examle, let me operate my stats.
well, i`d agree with that if it wasnt the Tiger 2 and Jagdtiger. Both are pretty easy best 6.7 machinery in their class if you ask me
hm… there is some sense there
Well, my experience is somewhat outdated as i can see. They suffered a bit of changes on the engine, making them slower for a bit. Tho still, when i play my shermans, the Panthers come to fighting positions roughly at the same time, and sometimes faster. I may be mistaken here…
and i prefer pushing forward)
i like then exactly because they fit any playstyle you choose with ease
Why bother?
On just mobility and automotive performance alone you made multiple blatantly false/incorrect statements with a level of confidence that would make bodybuilder era Arnold Schwarzenegger envious. Lord knows what else is wrong in your wall of text because I stopped reading after that.
It’s a waste of my time to try to convince someone that doesn’t want to change their own mind.
Barely. WarThunder doesn’t have differential steering (yes, even the “recent” double differential steering that was discovered doesn’t count, because it does NOT work like double differential steering at all).
The closest the Panther has is that when you’re holding W while turning, at slow speeds both tracks will be moving but that’s actually not a good thing. Since it’s not actually differential steering, all that is happening is that one track goes at its normal speed while the other goes slower. This actively means a wider, worse turning circle than if the inner track just stopped like on clutch brake steering, the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you want at low speeds.
Beyond that there’s neutral steering which, as I said already, with the exception of the Jagdpanther it is just not fast, and not a game changer. It just does not matter.
Then i find it funny that you sit on the internet forum with that mindset)
I mean, its a waste of time as none of the happening here matters anyway. So you should be going doing something usefull, working idk xD
Not to offend but thats a crazy statement to make at internet forum. The one and only thing it exists is to read and talk, especially when people talk calmly and with interest.
i`ll try that ingame today to refresh the memory, you convinced me
I’m in a university in a class I already had because I’m retaking it.
sounds great. Im heading home from work now.
Yes, it can. I wouldn’t for a moment argue they’re bad. Hell, even the Maus can flank sometimes if the enemy is blind. It’s a great vehicle for getting kills. But not the best at influencing matches imho. You can still do it, but you have to be mindful of its limitations.
A while back I made a video about using German 6.0 very aggressively.
You’re right, I clearly need more caffeine today.
For sure. It’s an even more extreme case of a tank that is a medium only in name.
No, the lower governor has been unchanged for a long time to my knowledge. That’s why I bring the VK with me to 6.0. Same gun, and it’s faster. Sure, you have less armour, but if you get really uptiered then the extra armour is just dead weight anyway. The only genuine, honest to god drawback is the atrocious targeting speed.
Yes, but the .50 means you will likely not complete that flank after barreling. Granted with the Pershing specifically you can kill it frontally regardless, but this is more to illustrate the fact that the Panther’s toolbox is not as varied; it’s a less versatile vehicle.
Tbh, the two levels of protection are incomparable. Take a look at the performance of Panther armour at 500 metres vs the guns of the Tiger II, Jagdtiger, and IS-2 respectively:
(In some screenshots Steam decided not to include the UI, oh well)
Now, the T-44 against the same guns:
That’s an insane level of protection for a medium tank.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough. I was not comparing my stats to other players, but my stats in Panthers vs my stats in other vehicles.
I would not say the best, no, but they are both very good, the Tiger II is just great period, the Jagdtiger needs someone with a brain to be used well but it can really shine if you know how to play it. However, I’ve been playing them in the 7.0 - 8.0 bracket (in order to play with my friend). These are two heavy, slow vehicles, it’s not like uptiering an M18, and yet I did better in them than I did in Panthers the month before. Not by much, but still better.
the panther 2 was cancelled by the german military the turret was redisigned and used on the panther F and then it was bombed canceling that one the turret tho was orginially for panther 2
The schmale Blende seems to be some sort of adaption of Rheinmetall’s H-SKA 86176 otherwise known as ‘Turm Panther 2 (schmale Blendenausführung)’ (English: ‘Turret Panther 2 (narrow mantlet variant)’) which the drawing dates back to November 7, 1943. The turret served as one of several proposals for the Panzerkampfwagen Panther II. It lacked the triangular roof line which accommodated the rangefinder, the rangefinder itself, and the armored guard underneath the mantlet which was designed to prevent shot traps. It is unclear if the schmale Blende is a parallel development to schmale Blendenausführung or a way for Rheinmetall to salvage the design after the cancellation of the Panzerkampfwagen Panther II in May, 1944.
