Please Give Us Back the Original Panther II, Flakpanzer 341 "Coelian," and Tiger II 10.5cm KwK

Machinery of War Discussion
,
1052

Because the Gerät 341 was built in metal. I’m not sure if the 105 APHE shell was manufactured or just the specifications were known, but they were also corrected according to historical documents. The change increased its penetration but reduced explosive filler significantly.

The “fiction” of the Coelian is that a turret was never built and the guns technically don’t qualify as a unique component because they were built for the Kriegsmarine.

The fiction of the Tiger II 105 is that in reality it was a singular upgrade proposal which was rejected, while the tank in game combines three separate upgrade proposals (gun, engine, rangefinder) and has a physically impossible turret.

As you can tell, the Tiger II 105 is much worse than the Coelian in this respect.

The Coelian is basically in the same situation of the Tiger II Sla. The one component that was built (guns / engine) was meant for a different end user (Kriegsmarine / Jagdtiger). Installation was proposed as an addition (let’s mount the guns on a Panther / let’s mount the engine on a Tiger II). This installation was never completed because the component required to carry it out was never built (turret for the guns / engine deck for the Sla).

So, at the end of the day, the real answer was given by Smin earlier in the thread.

Developer discretion.

2 Likes
1053

yeah, but we have stuff that could use ammunition, that was not issued it and had it removed, the Falcon and DCA being recent examples, the VEAK being an older one, so why should we assume the 341 would be issued with APHE? Especially given that the vehicle in question is VERBOTEN for anybody unlucky enough to have discovered the game late. My issue is less the APHE (I have issues with APHE in general, but that’s completely separate to the issue) more that a removed and completely unobtainable vehicle was buffed to such a ridicules degree.
My point is Gaijin needs to decide if they want these vehicles in the game or not. If yes, then restore then to either the TT or as squadron vehicles. If no, then remove them entirely.
Personally I am in favor of the 1st option.

Yes, from what I understand they took significant liberties to make “top tier” German tanks originally.

1054

They have already decided.

The current status quo makes sense from a business POV. You have to remember that MMOs and generally games-as-a-service are built on the illusion of ownership. If you remove the vehicles from the players who owned them, you destroy that illusion and strongly disincentivise people from grinding stuff. Just imagine, why sweat for an event vehicle and maybe GE some of the stages if at some point in the future, the vehicle can just be taken from you, disappeared from your inventory? They will never do that.

Thus, full removal is not an option on the table for Gaijin.

A “realistic remodel” would require effort without the certainty of a positive outcome, since that would also be controversial. Remodels are also easier for some vehicles than others (e.g. there is really no fixing the absolute mess that is the Panther 2).

So you are now down to two options. Leave the vehicle available for everyone, perhaps with a disclaimer or marker that signifies its ahistorical status (people can always consult the wiki for more) and call it a day, which is the option I would prefer. Or… you make it unobtainable in the future, so you get the marketing brownie points of saying “only real vehicles are currently obtainable in our game!” without taking it away from players who ground them out.

This is yet again a case where their decision makes 100% sense if you think about it as a company, but is completely ridiculous if you think about it as a human being. Because true, these vehicles will not be obtainable in the game as they are unrealistic, but if you play around 7.0, I guarantee you that you’ll see at least one every bloody match. But you don’t put that detail in a promotional social media post, so it’s fine.

4 Likes
1055

OK, look, I was just making a funny little joke to agree with you, I’m really not looking for a fight over the minutia of Gaijins inconsistencies.

I have to imagine nothing, as I no longer have a premium CV90105TML and I am STILL livid about it (and don’t @me that the new one is better).

1 Like
1056

Does somebody has the link to the removal of the german vehicles? I would really want to know what they said about the flakpanzer, as we had a chassis

1057

It would have been on the old forum. I think the issue with the chassis is that it wasn’t unique to the 341, it was a Pz.IV hull, so “not uniquely constructed for the vehicle”. Bearing in mind these are the people that removed the R2Y2 as “fake” as 20% of the FLYING prototype was built under the R2Y1 program and the engines while never planned to be in any other plane might have been used in something else and just completely ignore the other 2 fuselages…
Details here:

Spoiler

(MB-326K VS R2Y2, There is no reason R2Y2 can keep 8.0 - #97 by Cloudzy26160

1 Like
1058

Sorry man, I didn’t mean it as a “fight” or anything. I knew you were agreeing with me! From my POV we were just chatting about an interesting topic. Sorry, tone of voice isn’t always the easiest to carry over in text 😌

1059

Here is the official Devblog from that time: “Changes and optimization in the German tech-tree”

And the preceding Answers from the Developers

1 Like
1060

God, what a depressing devblog. Just like with the R2Y2s and Ho-Ris.

3 Likes
1061

All good mate, I probably should have phrased it as a discussion or at worst debate rather then a “fight”, I didn’t take anything you said as “hostile”, it’s just a complex (and aggravating) topic that I don’t really feel up to delving into at the moment.

1 Like
1062

Cheers, have a good one!

1 Like
1063

I am going to put this here for future use, because I’ve been in a number of discussions where some people said it was false that Gaijin intended to replace the Flakpanzer with the Ostwind II etc. Look at the quotes below from the Q&A and the devblog.

Plans are in motion; just in order to get the equipment out of the game, we need several replacement machines ready, and until they are all ready, we cannot just remove these.

The gap after Flakpanzer 341 Coelian’s hiding will be filled with the brand-new Ostwind II SPAAG.

The new M48A2 C tank with a 7.7 BR will be added to Rank V.

As such, with the advent of the Leopard family as well as the incoming M48A2 C in 1.91, the Panther II will be retired

Besides the above mentioned addition of the Ostwind II to replace the Flakpanzer 341 Coelian,

M48A2 G A2 shifts from the Leopard branch to replace 10.5 cm Tiger II

It is impossible to take this stuff seriously. It’s comedy gold, it’s a joke. Fast forward seven years and the Ostwind II is 1.7 BRs away from the 341, which is now one of the more busted SPAAs in the game; there is no TT medium tank between 6.0 and 7.7; no fully fledged lineup after 6.7 until you hit 8.0.

Their plan fell apart, as it was always going to, because the reason these vehicles were originally introduced (fill a gap roughly corresponding to a time when Germany was not building AFVs due to being otherwise preoccupied) has not changed either lmao.

Some replacements these are.

Slightly off topic but an interesting historical observation. This Q&A has a response from a time when Gaijin did not think Israel was a viable TT. Fascinating to see today!

Q. The game already has several Israeli tank modifications and they’re all premium and belong to different nations. Why squander such potential when it’s possible to create a full nation with a unique tech tree, including armoured vehicles from both the Western and Soviet schools, hybrid designs and, of course, its own Merkava line?

A. The branch requirements for a separate nation are rather specific and, unfortunately, the Israeli arsenal does not meet these requirements. It’s impossible to make a full research tree of ground forces (or aircraft) for this nation. So, we’ve chosen the current method, which we don’t consider to be a waste of potential. Quite the opposite, as players of different nations can try the Israeli tanks.

8 Likes
1064

It’s just sad, all it’s really resulted in is a lot of new players who can no longer obtain these vehicles, a gap in the German tech tree, and a bit more realism, even though much of this already existed in some form like the Panther II hull, and now we have things like the Ostwind II in the game whitch are worse in any way…

3 Likes
1065

The Ostwind II may be dubious but it is not worse than the in game Panther II in realistic terms. That vehicle is like, an amalgamation of five different Panther projects, most of them non-overlapping in terms of time, and none of them intended for joint development.

1 Like
1066

Not worse in realistic terms? Yes, it was a horrible decision by the devs to mix the different Panthers in a way that would never have happened in reality. But the Ostwind II isn’t any better. We don’t have any pictures of it, and not a single piece of it remains. So we don’t know whether the original vehicle even looked similar to the Ostwind II in game or whether it was ever truly completed to the point where it could actually be used.

1067

Czechslovak inventory records from 1947 show they found 14 Ostwind IIs in their possession. So it was built.

1068

There are construction and Test Drive reports as well as a track link of the japanese O-I, yet Gaijin said it was never built.

There is even less evidence for the Ostwind II, but Gaijin claim that it was built.

1069

Where exactly did you find that number? As far as I know, only a single Ostwind II prototype was built, and sources are unsure exactly what stage of development it was actually in.

1070

Just reaffirms that Gaijin had changed their approach at some point and then we began eating 20 shermans, 10 M109s and 5 M44s. Its so sad seeing how great game fallen under capitalistic governing.

3 Likes
1071

I’ve been thinking about this in general, and to be honest, the copy-and-paste doesn’t even bother me that much, since the vehicles often still differ slightly. What does bother me, however, are subtrees:

If they were standalone research trees, the copy-and-paste wouldn’t be so bad, since it would then only reflect the vehicles with the modifications specific to each nation. But I really don’t like it when a nation gains access to a vehicle it didn’t actually have, just because a Gaijin created a sub-tree to supplement that nation and bring it in line with the other nations.

This causes the research tree to lose its authenticity, and it could even become pointless to play multiple research trees, since the best vehicles are already available as a sub-tree within the research tree which you play as a main simply because Gaijin wants to make all research trees identical in terms of their capabilities…