Phantom FGR.2 at 12.0 makes no sense

The FG1 and FGR are both inferior to the F-4J (USA) and F-4S in everything except engine power and its gun (but thats more preference). No HMS, no long range Aim-7s, no slats (in case of F-4S).

The JA37C Viggen, which is fairly similar in playstyle and kit (just has half the SARHs), is at 11.3.

I would like to see them moved down to 11.7, slightly better than the Viggen, slightly worse than the F-4J/S

No slats and superior engines is why the FG1 and FGR2 have significantly superior sustained turn rates to the F-4J.
No HMS doesn’t change much when ACM and radar search is faster anyway.
Identical IR missiles.
The FG1’s radar missiles are primarily closer range, which they do rather well. AIM-7F’s primary benefit is looser leading needed for closer ranges and longer BVR capability.
And seeing how people praise R-24R, R-27R, and Super 530D; It’s safe to say that the extra BVR capability of AIM-7F is up for discussion. The looser leading needed does allow for more reckless shots though, even if your maneuverability is very similar between E-2, Skyflash, and F.

The FG1/FGR2 are equivalent to F-4J, and all of them are drastically superior to Mig-23ML platform aircraft in the air game modes.

The F-4JUK is all the “bad” of F-4J with the weapons of FG1, which is why that’s at least a bit inferior to the 12.0 Phantoms in tech trees.

It might be debatable about sending F-4K/M down to 11.7.
I prefer sending it down, though.

Just let us F-4J(UK) [scam plane] down to 11.7.
It is a straight downgrade of F-4J/S…

No offence, but F-4J can choose either AIM-7E-2 and AIM-7F, while British Phantoms are forced to use domestic AIM-7E-2, so using the missile itself as ‘benefit of FG1’ feels weak to me.

Back when AIM-7s all had the same 1.5 - 2 second delay, I was forced to lead for 2 seconds of travel.
Utterly horrific.
For Skyflash and Super 530D I need to lead for at least 0.7 and 0.5 now, which… I lead for 1 second.
I even lead for 1 second using AIM-7Fs and R-27s despite AIM-7Fs having no delay, and R-27s having a 0.35 delay.

I wish I could be like “Yo, not needing to lead is nice and shows results.”, but 25Gs is 25Gs no matter if the delay is 0 or 0.7, and that’s with watching 20+ content creators lead radar missiles, and speaking to 50+ others about their radar missile leading habits.
And not being able to launch at 32km at higher altitudes does seem to make the FG1s more deck rats than directly harming their lethality.

And yeah, F-4J UK is just the worst of both sides put into one disappointment.

@Flame2512 recently discovered the FGR phantoms could take SuperTEMP’s so that would be a nice buff given gaijin really don’t wanna move them down.

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/qDKeGlF2bDex

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If you fight 12.7 4th gens all the time, sustained turn doesnt really help. If they get on your six you are simply doomed.

The game is compressed, I think we can all agree on that. It should have to fight that stuff

13.0 is not “the game”.
13.0 causing some 12.3s and 12.7s to be under-BR’d is an issue.
The fact F-18s are below F-14B in BR is hilarious. F-14B is probably one of the number of 13.0s that “deserves” to be there.

Well, I guess his point is also a bit fair if those 4th gens don’t go up.

Sustained turn rate may be a good point for British Phantoms.
But you will gonna not have many chances because you will face these damn 4th gens like F-16A/ADF, F/A-18A/C.

:'(

STR I found is important for furball management.
Of course if anything is perpendicular to you with a superior STR, they’ll be on tail.
Which is why I learned with Mirage 3C vs F-14A the art of forced head-ons.

The forced head-on exists as a way not to attempt to end the other plane [unless you have a radar missile and they’re higher than you], but to force the enemy toward a vulnerable position… and run toward friendlies to expedite that vulnerable position.

Of course first priority is survival, second is personal performance, and 3rd is helping my team get frags even if I don’t get kill assists on the targets.

But yeah, with the overt power creep of 12.3 and 12.7 due to 13.0’s compression, it’s not ideal.
It also doesn’t help that skilled players flocked to French air so facing France is facing players that know tactics really well.

I would argue the FGR.2 can be at 12.0 if it gets Aim-9Ls which it could carry IRL.
The FGR.1 should go down to 11.7 since it would have significantly worse missiles. There is no reason these planes in their current form are 12.0 when the Tornado F.3 exists at 12.0 with Skyflash SuperTEMP and Aim-9Ls and has a stronger radar. Tornado F.3 also doesn’t have to gimp its flight model with a huge gunpod either.

AIM-9Ls would make it 12.3 or make the EJ Kai 12.0, Mig-23MLs 11.3, and F-4Js 11.7.
There is no situation where 9Ls should be on a 12.0 Phantom.

And yes, we know the Tornado F3 is under-BR’d.

You can’t move a single plane down in BR as long as there was no decompression at all.

This community is so curious…hundreds of threads about changing BRs, but not a single one about decompression…

Proves my prejudice, most of the players only watch out for their own advantages instead of wasting a single thought on making the game intself better.

Tornado F.3 is in the right BR, if it was higher it’d be an absolute pain to fly since its not at all competitive in 12.7 and at 13.0 it might as well stay on the ground. Having faced 12.7 and 13.0 planes in my Tornado, I can objectively say, if it went any higher, it’d be pointless. I’m not even going to grind for the Tornado F.3 Late because that thing has no business being in its BR with the flight model being as bad as it is.

There is talk about decompression all the time, and I think everyone wants it, but it is not that realistic (to convince the snail).

It is much easier to suggest and discuss that a single vehicle gets one less BR, and also more realistic than a full decompression. Of course some of the discussion is about wanting your vehicles to be better, but I would not blame the players that they don’t want a better game.

There is talk, for sure, but only in threads about single plane BR changes. No specific threads.

Moving a plane down in BR would be good for this specific plane, but without global decompression, make it worse for plenty of planes in lower BRs. Just look at the last changes, where all sabres and Migs gone down.

The point isn’t it is not realistic, The snail don’t want it! Too much work, too complex, too difficult…blablabla.

Look what they are implemented over the years, but they aren’t able to reform half of their planes’ BR?

There is talk, for sure, but only in threads about single plane BR changes. No specific threads.

Just a day ago there’s a thread about it.

The point isn’t it is not realistic, The snail don’t want it! Too much work, too complex, too difficult…blablabla.
Look what they are implemented over the years, but they aren’t able to reform half of their planes’ BR?

When I say realistic I mean realistic of it getting implemented, not realistic as impossible to do. An intern could change the battle ratings to something better than we have today. Spreading out the ratings would increase queue time and that’s something they’re very much against, hence why it hasn’t happened yet. That’s why players are much more keen on moving around ratings, it is actually something which the snail would implement.

This is a thread about GRB…??

Imo speculation.
Especially in higher tiers my queue time is only seconds on EU servers. So double the queue time doesn’t matter.

This is a thread about GRB…??

Decompression all the same, but if you want ARB there’s two threads from a week ago:

Imo speculation.

Regardless of why you think decompression hasn’t happened yet you have to agree that a BR change is more likely to get implemented by Gaijin than a decompression. Therefore I think it is fair for players to advocate for the next best thing.

but this makes the issue worse so it shouldnt be sought after

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Changing BR of specific planes is half-baked work. The more it happens the more problems it produces.