Open cockpit canopy exploit needs to be eliminated

[vitour]

What is my solution:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2007/august/01/north-american-aviation-p-51d-mustang

The original P-51D Mustang flight manual, AN 01-60JE-1, states that the maximum recommended flight speed with the canopy open is 130 knots (approx. 240 km/h). Exceeding this speed can result in damage to the canopy or its detachment.

RAF Typhoon Lands Without Canopy After Suspected Bird Strike

On this page you can read about the experience of an A-10 and RAF Typhoon pilot. Both aircraft lost their cockpit canopy and it says:

Major Brett DeVries of the U.S. Air Force, whose A-10 Thunderbolt II shed its canopy following a gun malfunction in 2017, said that the strength of the air rushing past was strong enough to pin his head back against the headrest – as if he had been punched. He chose to lower his seat as far as it would go in an attempt to mitigate the issue.

So here you see that the airflow also affects the pilot physically.

3rd Known IAF MiG-29 Canopy Loss, Pilot Saves Plane - Livefist

Here is written about the strength of the wind too

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/safety-advisory-notice/ao-2014-164-san-012

Here it is written about the crash of an RV-6A aircraft in which the cockpit opened during flight and the wind flow changed the aerodynamics of the aircraft so that the aircraft was not controllable and the aircraft crashed. From which it follows that if an aircraft opens the cockpit in flight, and is not adapted to fly with an open cockpit, it can become uncontrollable.

Flow over a glider canopy | The Aeronautical Journal | Cambridge Core

The best example to show that even the slightest change to an aircraft will cause a big change in the aerodynamic properties of the aircraft, than on gliders, where this issue is very widely addressed. On this page you will learn what the effect of the gap between the cabin canopy and the fuselage is. 1mm is a gap at which there is an immeasurable violation of the aerodynamics of the aircraft. 3mm and more is the limit when there is a significant change in the flight properties of the aircraft, which mainly increase resistance.

The conclusion from this source is that opening the cabin canopy will increase the drag many times over.

Nail-biting moment pilot lands plane after canopy bursts open mid-flight

This page is the story of a person whose cockpit opened during flight and was exposed to the full force of the wind, the plane did not have a front shield so the wind force was at full force.

Aircraft:Extra 330LX

Cruise Speed: Approximately 158 knots (about 182 mph or 293 km/h)

The result, as commented on by the person in the incident, is: “The flight was a distressing experience, filled with noise, breathing difficulties, and impaired visibility. It took me nearly 28 hours to fully recover my vision."

So my conclusion is: the pilot when flying with an open cockpit is affected by pressure, temperature, noise, wind gusts and interference with the controls. I will leave the specific speeds and influencing the player in the game to the developers, but a simple list of effects: vision shaking, blurred vision, reduced controllability or interference with the controls and when flying at high altitude or climbing quickly, black out due to a sharp change in pressure and of course increased air resistance

[Flash24rus]

@vitour

maximum recommended flight speed with the canopy open is 130 knots

Car manufacturers will not recommend you to drive with open doors, because it can cause damage and can be dangerous to passengers and other drivers on road.
But, who cares about it, if you race your car in rally or in destruction derby?

Spoiler

@vitour

Major Brett DeVries of the U.S. Air Force, whose A-10 Thunderbolt II shed its canopy

A uniquel case. The A-10 cockpit and the chair are located as high as possible for a better review of the ground targets. Also said it could lower his seat.

Spoiler

@vitour

crash of an RV-6A aircraft in which the cockpit opened during flight and the wind flow changed the aerodynamics of the aircraft

Canopy is the huge part of that light aircraft that can affect aerodynamics heavily. Also no separate frontal windshield section.

Spoiler

Our planes in game made in another way a little bit…

@vitour

Nail-biting moment Dutch pilot lands plane after canopy bursts open mid-flight

Again! Such plane has huge canopy and pilot sits very high for better view for aerobatics needs and plane HAS NO FIXED WINDSHIELD.

Spoiler

Stop using this case! We discussed it earlier! Show me another military plane from game without frontal windshield section of the cockpit!

[vitour]

@Flash24rus

But, who cares about it, if you race your car in rally or in destruction derby?

Cars doesnt go above MACH, just a small detail you might have missed.

@Flash24rus

A uniquel case. The A-10 cockpit and the chair are located as high as possible

Its true, there is also typhoon where pilot say the same. There is also to minimalize the force not to feel nothing.

@Flash24rus

Show me another military plane from game without frontal windshield section of the cockpit!

F-16?

@Flash24rus

Also no separate frontal windshield section.

This was an extrem, there is also section about gliders where you can find how even small hole around the cabine can make air resistence bigger.

@Flash24rus

Also no separate frontal windshield section.

And from the arguments you had in the past, couldnt that work as a wind shield?

I showed what happend when airplane lost its cabine and showed many effects that can be applyed in the game. Now its time to decide wich effect should be applayed in warthunder.

[Ion_Protogen]

@Flash24rus

Again! Such plane has huge canopy and pilot sits very high for better view for aerobatics needs and plane HAS NO FIXED WINDSHIELD.

Exactly. Those affects would happen on an F-16, but I highly doubt it would be the case on almost any other WWII plane. Open cockpit aircraft were incredibly common before WWII, and many weren’t slow either.

My opinion is that nothing needs to be changed at all. Gaijin already made them impossible to use for hearing other planes, and they are much more restricting in when you can open them now.

@Flash24rus

A uniquel case. The A-10 cockpit and the chair are located as high as possible for a better review of the ground targets. Also said it could lower his seat.

And the cockpit view in WT is stupidly low too, but Gaijin doesn’t think it’s a bug.

[RunaDacino]

Playing Il-2: GB recently,

@vitour

The original P-51D Mustang flight manual, AN 01-60JE-1, states that the maximum recommended flight speed with the canopy open is 130 knots (approx. 240 km/h). Exceeding this speed can result in damage to the canopy or its detachment.

I-16 vs. Bf-109K4 (IL2 Great Battles Version vs. DCS World Version)

I-16s Over Stalingrad | IL-2 Great Battles VR

I can’t believe how unrealistic IL-2 is to let the I-16 fly with cockpit open in a high-speed dogfight!

[Flash24rus]

@vitour

Cars doesnt go above MACH

P-51 doesn’t too.

This is a racing plane form 1930s with OPEN cockpit without canopy, that could go 700+ kmh (comparable to P-51):

Spoiler

@vitour

F-16?

Has large dashboard section with HUD glass that protects pilot from airflow

I’m 100% sure, General Dynamics made all tests to proove pilot safety when canopy fails.

Again, we already discussed it and there was and accident, when japanese F-16 lost it’s canopy during sortie and successfully made a landing at nearest base.

[Flash24rus]

@Ion_Protogen

nothing needs to be changed at all

Jets could go from surface to stratosphere in several minutes since 1950s, so they used and use pressurised cockpits.
A pilot will experience significant inconveniences from such rapid changes in the surrounding pressure and temperature if there’s no canopy…
We need some handicaps for the pilot’s characteristics.

[vitour]

We all can agree that in flight with opend cockpit, pilot feels an disconfort, especiali in hight speeds.

@Flash24rus

Again, we already discussed it and there was and accident, when japanese F-16 lost it’s canopy during sortie and successfully made a landing at nearest base.

He did, but had to slow down a lot, lose altitude and fly really slow. And here might be the finall question, why did he had to slow down? I wount beleve that while flight without the cockpit closed, you dont feel any effect of the speed.

I read about it and pulled out that conclusion, showed possible solutions. Its time to decise wich effect should be aplyed in warthunder.

In the end why dont punish those players that fly at MACH with opend cockpit, we arent those who fly with cockpits opend.

[PercussionCap]

@Flash24rus

A pilot will experience significant inconveniences from such rapid changes in the surrounding pressure and temperature if there’s no canopy…
We need some handicaps for the pilot’s characteristics.

So are we gonna make pilots have a stroke after pulling 12G and letting go of the stick too?

[Schindibee]

I still read this topic from time to time, with incredulous bemusement.

The examples of people flying with open cockpit either by intent, design or by accident are intersting of course, but quite beside the point, the point being that no (fighter jet) pilot would ever even consider actually opening the canopy in flight intentionally.

People doing just that in the game are doing so to gain an unfair and unrealistic advantage, and - at least in my view - this should not be allowed or have ingame repercussions (damage, noise,…) that negate those unrealistic advantages.

As to the by now many examples, what is still missing is an example of a fighter jet pilot opening the canopy intentionally in flight to “see better” or “hear better”.

You obviously won’t find one.

[Flash24rus]

@Schindibee

As to the by now many examples, what is still missing is an example of a fighter jet pilot opening the canopy intentionally in flight to “see better” or “hear better”.

Their cockpits were pressurized also, on MiG-9 and P-80 already.

Game must punish cabriolet fliers with some kind of vision and hearing obstruction at high speeds and altitudes.
Can be some decreasing in crew skill depending on speed, pressure and outboard temperature.

But don’t take away the manual control of the canopy.

[Schindibee]

@Flash24rus

But don’t take away the manual control of the canopy.

Of course not, but rip the canopy off when flying too fast.

It’s ironic, isn’t it? Perfectly ok to fly with an open canopy at Mach 1, but be just a tad over max. gear speed, and the gear not only gets damaged or needs to be checked by groundcrew, but falls right off…

[Flash24rus]

@Schindibee

but falls right off…

Yes.

In other games landing gear and flaps just stuck and bend becoming inoperable, btw.
Falling off flaps and gear is the legacy of the original Il-2, I think)

[PercussionCap]

@Schindibee

what is still missing is an example of a fighter jet pilot opening the canopy intentionally in flight to “see better” or “hear better”.

As of right now you hear worse with it opened by the way. Kinda entertaining that with canopy closed, the engine and wind sounds will be so far gone that you can just barely hear someone creeping up behind you - not really relevant to jets however. Maybe at the early jet tiers, but repair costs are so obscenely high that very few play them.

[dannaryan-psn]

I know this might be ruling with an Iron fist but I’d just lock the canopies for jets. Having them open on fast movers is stupid on many levels and lets be frank it’s not exactly common to see an F-16 landing with its canopy wide open before touch down. At the end of the day what are we missing? Being able to press a button to close the canopy before take off… what are we gaining? Much fairer games where people can no longer abuse badly implemented sound mechanics and cockpit layouts all of a sudden really matter…as they should. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Leave the canopies on WW2 aircraft alone but only give limited adjustability to sound controls so you can’t mute your engine noise but have external sounds at max volume giving you cheat eardar. If players complain the game is too loud then use your damn TV remote or adjust your monitor.

Done.

[Night_Trapper]

Just ask the smart internet…
It can happen that when the cabin cover is open, structural damage to the cabin and the technology in the cabin will occur, especially the helmet and the equipment on the helmet.
The pilot is limited in movement due to air flow, at high altitudes there is extreme frost, so the possibility of freezing the air intake, etc. and consequently, the aerodynamics of the aircraft are fundamentally disrupted…

In reality, many such things have happened with the cabin cover…
The usual procedure is to drop below 10,000 ft (3,000 meters), reduce speed to 400 km/h and land as soon as possible.

In the game, the cover should be blocked during the flight, otherwise it is another thing that would need to be programmed in detail, depending on the flight altitude and speed…
You need to monitor the space around you and the signaling in the cabin, map, chat…

[PercussionCap]

@dannaryan-psn

but only give limited adjustability to sound controls so you can’t mute your engine noise but have external sounds at max volume giving you cheat eardar

This isn’t possible.

[MatrixRupture]

Flying without a cockpit past a certain speed should just knock the plane out and send you back to the hanger lol.

[vitour]

when anything unusual happens there are procedures for pilots to follow, those procedures have their reason, it’s not like a manual for a car that anyone can buy anywhere, they don’t apply any safety deviations so that the pilot doesn’t fly faster than he should, the pilot must know the exact limits so that he never reaches them. there are procedures for both car drivers and military aircraft pilots, and especially for them. Those manuals and procedures were written by people who know best, they invented and designed the aircraft. the pilot is not the person who makes decisions in these situations alone, the pilot must respect the procedures and the manual. reality is not topgun where the maverick has the task of flying MACH 10 and no more, but he will still try more. if you follow something, then according to the manuals and procedures for extraordinary events. I showed enough examples, presented all possible factors that affect the pilot. showed possible solutions, if any of the developers are reading this, they’ll probably take something from me, who searched, read, and came to a conclusion that makes more than enough sense.

[Flash24rus]

@vitour

the pilot must know the exact limits so that he never reaches them

In regular flight. To save aircraft resource.

Pilots went above instruction limits in battles during War.

Do you want to forbid players to use gear and flaps when they want to? They often use em outside the permitted speed.