NF-5A on the Leviathan dev server

[Thomas_Belgium]

NF-5A

The NF-5A will be coming to War Thunder in the upcoming major patch “Leviathans” as a pre-order premium pack vehicle. This Discussion is an attempt at consolidating all known bug reports on this specific vehicle to see what should and shouldn’t be on the final in-game vehicle.

Table of Contents

• Earlier related discission pages
  • Suggestion post
• As-it-stands state
  • Things to note
• Bug Reports - ongoing
• Bug Reports - accepted/not-a-bug/implemented
• Sources

Earlier related discission pages

Suggestion post

NF-5A - The Dutch variant of the Canadair Freedom Fighter

poll poll The unique Dutch modification of the candair CF-5, armed with AIM-9P missiles and several improvements which would later be used on the F-5E. TL;DR: Dutch F-5 variant with sidewinders [2157-125-011] History

History

In 1966, the Koninklijke Luchtmacht (Royal Netherlands Air Force, or KLu) selected the F-5 Freedom Fighter to replace its aging fleet of F-84F Thunderstreaks. Initially, the Netherlands had hoped to co-produce over 200 F-5s in collaboration with Belgium, but Belgiu…

Community post

What I expect from the coming NF-5A

[Whats so special about the NF-5 coming to War Thunder? + small life update]

As-it-stands state

Loadouts

Cockpit

Pictures of the cockpit

Things to note

• AIM-9N instead of AIM-9P
• 60x normal and 30x large countermeasures
• 20 mm M39A3 x2 with 560 rounds total
• Engine: 2x General Electric J-85-CAN-15 (13,01 kN each) with afterburner (19 kN each):

Bug Reports - ongoing

Flight model

• [DEV] NF-5A has more countermeasures than the visual model: Community Bug Reporting System

Cockpit

Armament

Missing

• Center pylon 4x FFAR + 4x 500 lbs bombs
  
  NF-5A - Missing ‘R/B D’: “Rocket and Bomb Dispenser”: Community Bug Reporting System

• Center pylon SU-20 dispenser:
  

• Center pylon DIAS-camera + pod: 4x FFAR (+ 4x 14 kg bombs)
  

  

Table of armaments, as confirmed with pictures of in-service planes AND the flight manual

Armament

Canadair NF-5A
Loadouts
Main gun	2x M39A2 20mm	(560 rounds)
Pylons	Wingtip left (9)	Outer wing left (8)	Inner wing left (6)	Fuselage (5)	Inner wing right (4)	Outer wing right (2)	Wingtip right (1)
reference	AIM-9P						AIM-9P
reference		Mk.82 500lb Snake-eye High Drag				Mk.82 500lb Snake-eye High Drag
reference		Mk.82 500lb Snake-eye LowDrag				Mk.82 500lb Snake-eye Low Drag
reference				Training rocket pod (4x FFAR)
reference				DIAS camera + Training rocket pod (4x FFAR)
reference				DIAS camera
reference		LAU-51 (19x FFAR)				LAU-51 (19x FFAR)
reference		LAU-3A (19x FFAR)				LAU-3A (19x FFAR)
reference		600 lbs BL755 cluster bomb		600 lbs BL755 cluster bomb		600 lbs BL755 cluster bomb
reference	External fuel tank		External fuel tank	External fuel tank	External fuel tank		External fuel tank

Bug Reports - accepted/not-a-bug/implemented

Flight model

• Not-a-Bug: General Electric J-85-CAN-15: Wrong thrust and afterburner thrust: Community Bug Reporting System

• not accepted: flaps and gear doors: Community Bug Reporting System

• Accepted - flap positions: Community Bug Reporting System

• Accepted - landing gear doors: Community Bug Reporting System

Cockpit

Armament

Sources

Flight model

Engines

Cockpit

Instrumenten paneel Nederlandse NF-5A (met moving map display)

Armament

Armament according to the manual

AIM-9N Sidewinder in WT

Name:	AIM-9J Sidewinder	AIM-9N Sidewinder
Physical properties
Mass: [kg]	76,93	76,93
Mass at end of booster burn: [kg]	58	58
Mass at end of sustainer burn: [kg]	-	-
Calibre: [mm]	127	127
Length: [m]	3,05	3,05
Engine properties
Force exerted by booster: [N]	18100	18100
Burn time of booster: [s]	2,2	2,2
Raw acceleration at ignition: [m/s²]	235,28	235,28
Specific impulse of booster: [s]	214,43	214,43
ΔV of booster: [m/s]	594,15	594,15
Booster start delay: [s]	0	0
Force exerted by sustainer: [N]	-	-
Burn time of sustainer: [s]	-	-
Specific impulse of sustainer: [s]	-	-
ΔV of sustainer: [m/s]	-	-
Total ΔV: [m/s]	594,15	594,15
Fuse and warhead properties
Explosive mass: [kg of TNT equivalent]	7,616	7,616
Warhead:	SAPHE	SAPHE
Penetration: [mm]	58,08	58,08
Proximity fuse:	Yes	Yes
Proximity fuse range: [m]	5	5
Proximity fuse shell detection (80-200 mm):	Yes	Yes
Proximity fuse delay: [s]	0,5	0,5
Impact fuse sensitivity: [mm]	0,1	0,1
Impact fuse delay: [m]	1	1
Guidance properties
Guidance type:	IR	IR
Guidance start delay: [s]	0,5	0,5
Guidance duration: [s]	40	40
Seeker warm up time: [s]	1	1
Seeker search duration: [s]	20	20
Field of view: [degrees]	2,5	2,5
Gimbal limit: [degrees]	40	40
Track rate: [degrees/second]	16,5	16,5
Uncaged seeker before launch:	Yes	Yes
Maximum lock angle before launch: [degrees]	40	40
Minimum angle of incidence of the seeker to the Sun for it to not capture the Sun: [degrees]	10	10
Baseline lock range from rear-aspect: [km]	5,5	5,5
Baseline flare and Baseline IRCM detection range: [km]	8	8
Baseline head-on lock range against afterburning target: [km]	1	1
Maximum lock range (hard limit): [km]	11	11
Maximum break lock time: [s]	3	3
Can be slaved to radar:	No	No
Proportional navigation multiplier: (affects how far ahead it attempts to lead)	4	4
Base indicated air speed: [m/s]	1800	1800
PID proportional term:	0,0025	0,0025
PID integral term:	0,0406	0,0406
PID integral term limit:	1	1
PID derivative term:	0,0006	0,0006
Flight characteristics
Drag coefficient multiplier (this is not the only value affecting drag, just because it’s higher than another missile’s doesn’t mean it actually has higher drag!!):	3,3	3,3
Maximum fin angle of attack: [degrees]	16,2	16,2
Maximum fin lateral acceleration:	17,6	17,6
Wing area multiplier:	1,4	1,4
Start speed: [m/s]	-	-
Maximum speed: [m/s]	1000	1000
Maximum statcard (useless) speed: [Mach]	2,5	2,5
Maximum statcard (useless) launch range: [km]	18	18
Minimum range: [m]	30	30
Flight range limit: [km]	18	18
Maximum G-load: [G]	20	20
Maximum statcard (useless) G-load: [G]	20	20
Flight time when pull limit reaches x%: [s/%]	-	-
Flight time when pull limit reaches x%: [s/%]	-	-
Thrust vectoring:	No	No
Thrust vectoring angle: [degrees]	-	-
Additional Notes:		Identical to the AIM-9J currently.

Source: Gszabi99’s Guided weaponry munitions data sheet: Guided weaponry data (in-game values) Honorable mention for Jaek_ for making amazing videos on missile on YouTube If you want to reach enlightment, then you have to spade the Italian heli line, no talisman/ premium/ boosters - Google Spreadsheets

[Thomas_Belgium]

The first Bug report is out:

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/Nzk4S6xkek4f

regarding the wrong valuas of the thrust of the General Electric J-85-CAN-15 engines.

Edit: Denied as not-a-bug with:

The manual states Engine stand thrust, but the game uses thrust of the installed engine.

[JimmieJugend]

Good idea to have a post like this!

Regarding the engine, it is stated that it is for an uninstalled engine. So they are going to defend its current thrust as correct, have been the same procedure with the other F-5’s.

Do you know what kind of sight is dsiplayed in those diagrams?

[Thomas_Belgium]

@JimmieJugend

Do you know what kind of sight is dsiplayed in those diagrams?

A standard Northrop non-computing gunsight but replaced the Sperry gyro heading and reference system with a Bendix attitude and heading reference system, at least according to what I’ve read.

[Thomas_Belgium]

@JimmieJugend

Regarding the engine, it is stated that it is for an uninstalled engine. So they are going to defend its current thrust as correct, have been the same procedure with the other F-5’s.

That’s weird, as all Dutch sources use the values for the uninstalled engine.

[JimmieJugend]

Yeah they are rated on mounts outside the aircraft, and then gaijin can decide the amount of channel losses thenselves. For example, the F-5A using the J85-13 engine have less thrust than the G.91Y using the same engines.

[Thomas_Belgium]

Second new bug report

[Dev] NF-5A - Missing ‘R/B D’: “Rocket and Bomb Dispenser”: Community Bug Reporting System

[Pz_Kpfw_VII]

wait is this pre-order pack is a scam coz like 70USD just for a f-5A with more CM only
why does it so expensive
and you said ECM was equipped, how is it exactly

[Thomas_Belgium]

Please rephrase your question.

I didn’t have anything to do with pricing. The pricing is based upon the Rank of a vehicle. All rank 7 planes are 69.99 GJN. Take it up with Gaijin’s marketing department.

The NF-5A is not an F-5A.

The NF-5A has a lot more differences than ‘just more countermeasures’.

The ECM pod is installed right above the engines and those triangular boxes on the top left and right on the sides of the engines.

Please read the articles above. You’ll find answers to most, if not all, of your questions…

[WalletWorrier]

10.3 with AIM-9N is wild surely it’s a mistake

[Pz_Kpfw_VII]

Thank you for your reply and answers
I dont think i need to rephase my questuon but anyway
I just realise that im comparing its stats cards to a F5E, seems it should be better then a regular F5A？Im not sure, i haven’t check yet
But as far as i concern, does the ECM we’re talking here is same as the one on Su39？
Thanks

[Thomas_Belgium]

@Pz_Kpfw_VII

I just realise that im comparing its stats cards to a F5E, seems it should be better then a regular F5A？

That’s correct! The NF-5A is an improvement on the CF-5A, which in turn is the Canadian Canadair licence produced variant of the Northrop F-5A. The F-5E is based on the improvements introduced on the NF-5A, such as the cockpit, canopy, ECM, engines, etc.

@Pz_Kpfw_VII

But as far as i concern, does the ECM we’re talking here is same as the one on Su39？

No it’s not, as far as I know it’s mostly the RWR system paired with countermeasure pods. This system is from the 1980s. As can be read in my post:

@Thomas_Belgium

addition of radar warning receivers and ALE-40 chaff and flare dispensers mounted on the rear fuselage.

[Thomas_Belgium]

I could see it going up in BR for Ground Realistic Battles. As for now on the dev server it’s definitely 10.7 in Air Realistic Battles, as can be seen in the first picture of this thread.

[MrBombastic8]

denied

[Thomas_Belgium]

We don’t know what to do about that, the values used by Gaijin are absent in any Government or Military documents. The bug-reported values are the only ones present in any documentation and tests.

[MrBombastic8]

i think they want exact value on installed engine since mounting and normal air enviroment would give different thrust value
but most modern aircraft doesnt suffer alot from this
usually the installed engine would maybe have 1-5% less thrust
“channel loss” is informerly used to describe this although its not official(but gaijin devs/mods use this)
i say they should buff it closer to the value on bench test
from what i research older jet has much higher CL(around 10-25%, condition dependant) than modern jets(around 1-5%, condition dependant)

also idk how gaijin calculate thrust of installed engine
i think they just made up numbers to balance it out tbh

[WalletWorrier]

Ah, that makes more sense. I’d still think it should be 11.0 in ARB as it seems to be more akin to the F-5E than A/C, but at least it’s not 10.3

[JimmieJugend]

By the way, do you know where the additional 30 large cal CMs are mounted?

[Thomas_Belgium]

I don’t, but I am aware of the ALE-40(N) mount: 60 chaff/flare.

ALE-40(N). This is a special variant designed for the Royal Netherlands NF-5 and consists of a CCU(cockpit control unit), chaff/ flare programmer, and two dispensers. It is skin mounted on the aft fuselage. A similar installation was used on the F-104. (Compared to the normal US F-5E ALE-40(V) dispensers, that could only launch 30 normal flares, 15 on each side.)

However, later manuals do mention the additional 30 large-calibre flare countermeasures. I have not yet seen what that installment was called, but is was located near the root of the tail. As far as I know, the ALE-40(N) dispensers (which were further upgraded in their last phase) are just larger than their counterparts on the F-5E, which would explain the additional 30 large countermeasures.

Some illustration of the normal ALE-40(N) (clearly 10x3 layout):

An example of the old 5x3 (large calibre) flare layout:

[JimmieJugend]

According to this website, the 6x3 is flares and the 10x3 is for chaff! AN/ALE-40 chaff dispenser

Weird if the additional CMs doesnt have a physical origin…