and this is an issue of the Typhoon and Rafale probably needing to be 14.3 more than anything
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I think a better way to say this is that the F-15 air frame is not optimized for WVR the way the Su-27 or JA-39 or EFT or Rafale are.
However, it’s ability to accelerate and maintain acceleration allows it to perform adequately in air RB.
I’m confident, 1v1 vs an F-15E in my Su-27SM that I’m probably going to win, but I have to survive to the merge to get there. AIM-120 spam really keeps that from happening for players that don’t know how to play air RB.
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You clinged on to my airframe take and seemingly ignored everything else.
So you shouldn’t be surprised when I bring up 1v1 when you claim that my airframe take is wrong.
And no, Rafale and Typhoon are F-15C equivalent aircraft as well.
Airframe performance =/= BR. The weapons dictate playstyle more than anything else.
AMRAAMs killed the dogfight entirely.
My entire point is that because top BR War Thunder is AMRAAM territory, that speed matters most, then weapon count and radars when the defensive systems are “equal”.
Time to climb is a consideration for hyper-aggressive gameplay.
And taking ALL OF THAT into account, that makes F-15C/BazM/JM/E/I, Typhoons, Su-27SM, and Rafale equal.
No, Su-27SM doesn’t have a narrow search; it has a 20km HMD though.
No, F-15E can’t dogfight to save its life, it has engines though.
No, F-15C-BazM don’t have the best engines, they have lower weight and better fuel endurance though.
So on and so forth.
Each trade something for something else that’s equal for the context of air RB.
That’s my entire point.
It’s not (Well ingame at least). It has a TON more thrust which you will feel when you fly them both. Surprisingly the F-15E/I actually outperform the F-15Cs at low speeds as well (they shouldn’t), and the higher BR ingame is very much warranted due to its advantages.
The things a fricken rocket ship in Air RB
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As I said, the thrust is the only thing that makes the F-15E equivalent to F-15C.
F-15C is a minimum of empty-mass difference lighter, and in reality it’s even lighter due to players bringing less fuel mass than F-15E players.
F-15C out-rates F-15E at all speeds below ~0.92 mach, which also means it out-retains energy at those speeds.
Outright acceleration only matters for hyper-aggressive gameplay: Climbing BVR.
Outside that, it’s a marginal difference in gameplay compared to everything else.
Top speed of the F-15E is chronically average due to the drag nerfs.
But isn’t that like top tier air RB gameplay now? Having the thrust to keep high speeds while also having a large missile load is meta. Any dogfights will be rare due to being third partied until either isolated or end of match.
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Having played 11.7 myself I have to agree the only real plane that could “dogfight” is the F-5 then you immediately get slapped by a mig-23, You can’t go high nor slow the only real way to get kills is surprise.
Look where the enemies pack usually end up and from there just spam missiles until you get killed or managed to escape the fur-ball.
I hope they add 14.0 fighters for nations that don’t have any right now. Russia and China will get a Su-30 variant since that was leaked but I wonder what Japan and Sweden will get.
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Here’s the thing, that <30 second difference to mach 1.5 is with full fuel in both F-15C and F-15E.
It’s not fuel time normalized.
Granted, it’d likely be a 3 - 7 second improvement, but the point still stands.
I’ll probably pick 5 minutes full AB as the fuel normalized time when I finally get around to collecting all that data.
As for thrust to keep high speeds: F-15C and F-15E have almost identical post-mach energy retention.
This is partially due to the lower empty weight of F-15C, partially due to the drag nerfs F-15E got.
The difference between F-15E and F-15C in acceleration is closer together than F-16C and Su-27/J-11/J-11A. In-fact, J-11 is closer to F-15E than it is to F-16C. F-16C BTW is the fastest accelerating single-engine fighter with AMRAHMs.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if the acceleration difference between F-16C and Mirage 2000 is akin to F-15E and F-15C.
J-11A is the “slowest” of the 13.7+ twin engine missile buses.
@maxidaxy_ネコ
Japan already has F-15JM being under-BR’d. F-2 might be a sidegrade to that.
F-2 for Japan for sure
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I hope so, the question is. Will it be 14.0 worthy since it does not have an HMD no MWS and can only carry 4 Fox-3s. The only benefit it will have is the AESA radar, and if Gaijin doesn’t make AESA radars more powerful the F-2A wont cut it
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the su30sm has a pesa radar so it is 100% better than the current su27sm radar…tvc will also help with low-speed maneuverability and in the future it can receive more advanced weapons such as r73m, r77-1, etc, the su30sm2 got upgraded/better engines but idk much about it, i do agree that to counter the ef and rafale russia might need the su35
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There is enough creative liberty to give F-2 the HMD as that’s apparently on the ADTW version of the F-2 currently as part of the AAM-5 package (similar to how the F-15J(M) has HMD for similar reasons).
This will hurt but the F-2 should have a better/modern RWR that should be able to see the K band (if it has more than 45 degree coverage, I’m not sure).
Supposedly it can carry 6 AAM-4s on the wings, but keep in mind that it’s a light fighter so 6 fat AAM-4s will weigh it down severely.
I’m sure it will improve over time but the real hope is the scan rate is fast so that you can provide decent TWS updates. If it ends up like the Captor-M it will be a struggle.
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Yeah maybe I’m a bit pessimistic but knowing Gaijin I’m preparing for the worst
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Actually, more like 5 tons
30sm have n011m BARS radar, that is coming fom 80’s, yes, it will be better than current 27sm’s radar, but it will be way worse comparing to 15e\ef2000\rafaele radar. The competitor is n-035 IRBIS (used in su-30sm2 and su-35).
TVC will change nothing since engaging into any dogfight on top tier is a pure suicide. And honestly it never happens.
Both su-30sm2 and su-35 use AL-41F enegines providing equal to the current top tier jets T\W ratio.
And talking about more advanced weapons… please no. it will make everything even worse.
anything better than the current su27sm radar and I’ll be happy lol
true, at least they could fix a little bit the drag of the r77 D:
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F-15E using 70’s radar idk what you are going on about lumping it with the rafale 2010’s AESA and eft 90’s/00’s M-scan. Maybe if F-15E had its rightful AN/APG-82v1 you’d be right
China had the J-11B leaked, not the Su-30MKK.
@Smin1080p_WT could you maybe look into this report? I know its JUST 5 months old and Accepted but this change would actually made the MUSS usefull…
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/AUfAIlAreJ5M