It is fine for some of the CAS BR reductions because the Cold War SPAAs are also crazy; Gaijin should give some better CAS for Japan/British/Italy or any other nations lacking CAS, L39 is good but now it will be 7.7 unless we get something like A37B or something instead. I don’t know what we will have in the future
Canberra is amazing when it is 8.0, with a better engine and 2000 rounds of ammunition, and it is also good at dogfighting; you can imagine it is like a jet B7A2
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i think this is why they lowered the canberra. Instead of giving britain a south african MB236 or doing the right thing and lowering the vampire to 7.3 and venom to 8.0.
they arent ballistic computer CAS monsters but thats good, things like the albatross are OP as all hell, more of them for powercreep isnt fixing the issue but making it worse
yea i take it into air battles from time to time without bombs, just to sealclub bombers and troll fighters that dont realise what it can do
That is what I complained about before; it is said that Britain is too hard to get any powerful vehicles from other nations be on time. And last time Gaijin wanted to increase Spitfire Mk24 to 7.0 lmao
Also the IA58, but the British never get any seized vehicles
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They are kinda bad in both ARB and GRB. They just aren’t fast enough compared to everyone else nearby, and hate to accelerate. Climbing MiG 15s have left my diving R2Y in the dust and no amount of turning preformance is gonna catch up
Its just another one from their extensive list of excuses. Game is beyond help at this point
You see the same obviously happening with ground vehicles these changes too…
Looks at the rotting corpse of the T20
I thought gaijin should changing the historical BR of the land war to 7.7 or 7.3 .
I think AT MINIMUM the R2Y2 should be at 7.3 at MAXIMUM it should be 7.7. The thing no longer has the airspawn that made it broken to begin with and on top of that, the guns got nerfed. Ideally 7.3 because of the reasons listed above. They’ve shown they CAN change the BRs of removed vehicles, prime examples being the Flakpanzer 341 and Tiger II 105 which were both moved up in BR recently. This means they cannot use the excuse that just because it got removed, they cannot change the BR.
Looks to be doing just fine. As MiGoon pointed out in the BR changes thread:
3rd best tank when sorted by KS
3rd best when sorted by KD
3rd best when sorted by SL per game
Let’s drop the collective hallucination that the poor T20 is overtiered. Look at how much it’s being spawned and what tanks it shares those lists with, and do 2+2.
Is there any website that filters these statistics through individual player averages on similar vehicles?
So for example a player that easily does 5:1 K/D in other medium tanks but only does 4:1 in the T20 would be counted as 0.8 (compared to ideal 1), while a player that usually struggles at 0.2:1 but does 0.4:1 in the T20 would be counted as 2 for example. This way player skill can be taken out of statistics. It’s still far from perfect, when some players just prefer certain playstyles and so on, but more accurate than ignoring it completely.
It just seems like the more accessible a vehicle is, the less well it performs in statistics, so less popular/unavailable premiums, old event vehicles and just generally vehicles from less popular starting nations tend to seem like they perform better than they should. These reasons shouldn’t really go into balancing though.
For example the M24 Chaffee series is in five different techtrees and aside from APCR on an old event variant and missing smoke launchers and sideskirts on another variant (M24DK) they are identical.
Still despite the basic techtree versions of the American, Japanese, Italian and Chinese techtrees being identical tanks their (ground only because I forgot to factor in air kills) K/D is vastly different. The USA, the most popular starting techtree with the most new players, has a score of only 0.78 K/D, while the somewhat less popular Chinese tree has 0.90 and the two niche options in Italy and Japan both getting ~1.06 K/D.
Interestingly the best performing freely available tank at a 1.11 K/D is the M24DK in the Swedish techtree, despite being objectively a worse tank that loses the roof smoke launcher and sideskirts at no return.
The old Thunder League event M24 also expectedly has the highest score at 1.3 K/D, which I don’t think is solely due to the added APCR, even though it is technically the best of the bunch.
Very likely only gaijin has access to this, if at all. World of Tanks used to have something similar (on a 3rd party site) where a tank’s winrate was plotted against the overall winrate of the player using it. Made for some very interesting comparisons.
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Only loses to e100 while having 70x more games. Rotting corpse indeed
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Not to my knowledge, no.
Sure, but this does not apply to the T20. I get what you’re saying, it’s valid for many vehicles, just not this one. The player base for it is not small: 160k spawns in that period of time vs 486k in the T29, a similar non-new premium in a similar area of the tree with much more media coverage.
The reason for the T20’s absurd stats is not that its players are gods, it’s that this is a vehicle that fits the meta of GRB extremely well. This in turn of course tends to attract players who want to win, but the causal relationship goes very clearly that direction.
If you ask an experienced player in a vacuum, “how would you rate a vehicle that is fast, reactive even in reverse, has partial stabilisation, a low profile, APHE, and a fast reload but not much armour?” the answer would be universal: very high. None of these factors alone are enough to make a vehicle exceptional, but if you combine them together and slap them into the kinds of maps we have in GRB today… you get a vehicle that shares a list with the KV-220 and the E-100, and we all know what that’s likely to mean.
This is a repeat of the endless debates about the KV-220, where everyone who owned one swore that it was overtiered and it was only doing well because of its incredibly skilled players, where here too the relationship was the other way around - it attracted players who only want to play meta stuff because they like doing well, and they recognised that the KV-220 would allow them to dominate. Only the T20 is not a rare event vehicle, but a premium that you encounter fairly often if you play that BR bracket consistently.
Look at this guy I encountered today:
I also am the type of player who hyperfixates on specific vehicles, I have a ton of matches in the Tiger II Sla, but what’s really impressive and illuminating about this player is that their most played vehicles either are meta now, or have been meta at some point (or are seal clubbers). If the T20 really was mediocre, this player would simply not touch it, let alone have it as their most played vehicle in the whole game.
Like I said in the BR changes thread, it is also surprisingly common for me to run into T20 players that play with no lineup. They just spawn the T20, maybe with some good old “nuclear danger” or “get your sunglasses” decals, and once they die, they don’t respawn and they move on. Why this behaviour? Because they’re using the T20 to farm nukes. You don’t see this being done with the T29, or the T28, or the Super Hellcat, all American premiums around that area. Only with the T20.
The solution from a balance POV is obvious imho. Instead of sending it up in BR, keep it at 6.3 but aggressively nerf its reload. This way it’s still an effective flanker but it’s not a nuke farmer. Once you stop attracting certain kinds of players to it, the population of T20 players will start drifting closer to the average, you’ll get more normal statistics, and it’ll find its place somewhere in the mid tiers.
Generally speaking a regular premium vehicle sharing a list with some of the most powerful event vehicles in the game (or played by true skilled veterans in the case of the tournament-locked E-100) is definitely overperforming. Let’s not even pretend otherwise.
I’m sure they must have access to it because it probably informs them about some critical elements of gameplay and monetisation (like the speed of player SL/RP gain). I understand why they don’t publicise this information, as it leads to people “meta-gaming” which is something Gaijin seems very keen to avoid.
That’s what I’m concerned about: a few years ago, when I complained that R2Y2 should not be 8.0, Stona or Sim replied that " they are still efficient", and compared with ground, which only measures by kills and Winrate, Air is more diverse and proves how Gaijin measures the BR, and we can know that they are using SL per game as the most important way to determin the BR, and then we got A2D in ARB at 9.0 because it can climb and bomb all the base without distrub(it is also a good fighter due to powerful engine and firepower), or we have the A6M5 Ko, which will be 6.0, and we know how bad it is if the players knows do not dogfight with it. The other famous case is the Italian Sabre MK4, which is controled by a small group of ACE players, which made Gaijin want to move it to 9.0 before.
For T20, it is complex; most normal players will avoid playing these BR vehicles because there is almost nothing unless you purchase a lot of golden vehicles, and then you will unlock a super efficiency lineup to farm SL, and you can see super hell cat also ready to 6.7 lmao, the players who choose T20 must be experienced at least, the 6.3 BR is scary enough to let normal players to play it, Just like a barrier, and we have see that happend on Ho-Ri(the 6.7 one)
For R2Y2, I’m afraid Gaijin just forgot and believes they are still efficient; that’s why I hate using statistical data only to measure the balance
It doesn’t FYI.
For the R2Y2, the problem is actually more simple: They’re turnfighters.
Turnfighters have a super low skill floor, because all you need to know in order to win is how to turn your aircraft.
But they also have a super low skill ceiling. Doesn’t matter how well your aircraft turns if your enemy just refuses to engage in a turnfight, and instead plays for energy.
The problem comes in from the average player in War Thunder being, frankly, pretty bad. It’s not even entirely their fault, Gaijin does an appalling job of actually teaching gameplay basics to them, especially in Air RB where energyfighting isn’t a super obvious concept to most newer players.
The result of this is that any plane that can turn exceptionally well will end up with inflated statistics. That’s why Gaijin are still trying to push Zeros up into super props, while the actually most problematic plane at 5.7, the Yak-3U (AKA the God King of Energy) gets left alone.
It’s why the Vampires are up alongside the R2Y2. Doesn’t matter that basically everything they can see can just point their nose up and easily win the fight, doesn’t matter that they’re at the same BR as the MiG-15 which they cannot touch unless the MiG makes a mistake. Not when so many players will continue to insist on turnfighting everything they see.
And until that changes, they’ll still be far higher than they should be.
2 Likes
Just a correction: the SL is most related to kills and win rate for the ground battle
For both modes they count overall efficiency. Any useful action that generates score and gives awards. Scouting, caps, ground targets/bases, getting hit, hitting someone, getting awards etc.
If you look at how much score you get from ground pounding in ARB you’ll see it isn’t that much unless you absolutely go bonkers and do everything yourself. Win earn bonuses are also the same size as ground’s.
No, like Aegis said, this is just a turn fighter problem.