Marder M12 - An Interim Solution

[Would you like to see this in-game?]
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TL;DR: A Marder 1A3 equipped with a two-man turret that houses a 30mm autocannon.

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History:

Getting infantry into combat zone in a timely manner is necessary when it comes to warfare. Even more necessary is making sure that infantry are not exhausted or killed before getting into a combat zone. The need for motorized troop transports was felt all the way back in WW1, however, it wasn’t until after WW2 that development on purpose built armored troop transports started to see any meaningful traction. These troop transports would not only transport troops but assist them in removing enemy troops as well. Many nations began development on similar concepts at the same time. The French developed the AMX-10P, the Soviets developed the BMP-1, the Americans developed the M113; the list goes on and on. West Germany was one such nation. From 1960 to 1971, development on the Marder was underway. The first production vehicles would be handed over from Rheinmetall to the Bundeswehr on May 7th of 1971. The vehicle would enter service and see many upgrades over its service life, one of which was the Marder 1A3, which improved protection against autocannon fire. Eventually, however, the need to replace the Marder series was felt, which meant that Rheinmetall needed to find someone else to buy their Marders, which meant it was export time. Customers could simply buy standard Marder 1A3s, however, for those who wanted a bit more firepower at the expense of an ATGM, KUKA, in cooperation with Rheinmetall produced the Marder M12, also called KUKA M12 or Marder MK 30, a Marder 1A3 fitted with Rheinmetall’s E4 turret which housed a stabilized 30mm Mauser MK 30-2 autocannon. The Marder M12 was also offered to the Bundeswehr as an interim solution while the Marder’s replacement was being developed. The Bundeswehr took KUKA up on this offer and acquired at least one vehicle for testing, which was given a license plate and German markings. Unfortunately, nothing came of this. Later on, KUKA’s Marder M12 would enter Switzerland’s Schützenpanzer 2000 Program alongside vehicles like the CV9030 and Warrior 2000, however, it was rejected as it had failed to keep pace with the Leopard 2 during trials. To this day, no one has adopted the Marder M12.

Place In War Thunder:

Many were happy to see the PUMA make its way into War Thunder, however, its fantastic protection, mobility, and autocannon made the vehicle far too overpowered for its original 8.3 BR, which led to it eventually becoming a 9.3 vehicle. This change created a gap between 8.0 and 9.3 in which Germany does not have an IFV and while the Marder 1A3 will perform just fine until you get your hands on the PUMA, the 20mm autocannon leaves a lot to be desired. The Marder M12 could fill that gap and provide a much smoother transition to the PUMA. It has the same armament as a PUMA, however, its protection and mobility are the same as the Marder 1A3’s. Playstyle would be similar to the PUMA’s, however, your worse mobility and paper thin armor would force you to play with a bit more caution. Your turret is also manned by two people and you have no blowout panels. The best place for the Marder M12 would, again, be in the tech tree, filling the IFV gap between 8.0 and 9.3, however, considering that it was never adopted by anyone, it could easily be an event reward or a premium.

One last thing to note. When Switzerland trailed the Marder M12, they replaced the 7.62mm MG with a 7.5mm MG. This could potentially give it enough reason to be added to the Swedish tech tree under the Swiss flag as that specific variant of the Marder M12 was exclusive to Switzerland. I encourage anyone willing to make a suggestion for this vehicle in the Other Nations section.

Specifications:

Armament: 30mm Mauser MK 30-2 and 1x 7.62mm MG

Dimensions: 6.79m, 3.24m, 2.98m (L,W,H)

Weight: 34100kg

Armor: Same as Marder 1A3 in-game

Crew: 3

Ammunition: Same as PUMA in-game

Speed: 65~kph

Horsepower: 591hp

Pictures:

Side View:

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During the Schützenpanzer 2000 Program:

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Page From Nowa Technika Wojskowa 2000-11:

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Sources:

Army Guide

Army Guide

Below The Turret Ring: September 2017

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/07/21/spz-marder/

Nowa Technika Wojskowa 2000-11

Chronik Panzergrenadierbataillon 52 1996

Jane’s International Defense Review 1997-09

8 Likes

Interesting! I’d never heard of this before. +1

+1, but this cannot be reason for give this vehicle to Sweden.
Swiss is not even Northern Europe, and there is no Sweden technoledges in this vehicle.
And Sweden already has an alternative - 9030 FIN, to this vehicle.

13 Likes

I think this or the Marder 2 would have been much better additions to the Puma. The Puma is still such an unfinished mess it’s obvious Gaijin wasn’t ready to implement it.

And I agree with @MBDA_Meteor, there is really no reason for it to go to Sweden.

2 Likes

okay so there was another with the E8 turret as well but i cant seem to find any differences between the two

listed under here

More photos
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This SOE Collaborates with Turkey to Produce Marder and Kobra Class Tanks
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Kuka’s M12 grenadier tank

3 Likes

+1 marders are pretty darn cool

Actually since Switzerland is officially a German subtree, couldn’t this work as a premium?

Now it’s 10.3 🥀

+1 should come soon

Bushmaster mardar? Yes

This isn’t a bushmaster… Used the same gun seen on the puma

Yeah in the same family, but it’s not the same, it’s a predecessor to the Mk 30-2 ABM.
Either Mk 30-1 (Aluminum case ammo) or Mk 30-2 (Steel case ammo)
So they’re not limited to 200RPM like on PUMA either, on ASCOD (Pizarro/Ulan) the Mk 30-2 has a 770 RPM Fire rate and on the Artemis 30 AA emplacement the Mk 30-1 has 800 RPM Fire rate.

I think the Marder M12 sports the Mk 30-1 because the muzzles look similar, idk tho.

Spoiler

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Everything that I personally could find about rheinmetalls e4 turret says it’s a mk30-2 and that makes sense as that’s the more anti armour gun

Hopefully you know it’s limited for accuracy and not because the gun can’t fire quicker puma could in theory fire up to 700rpm but there’s no option for that to save accuracy

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Same gun used on the m12 what was used on the earliest puma prototypes it’s just the regular mk30-2

Also in the post they do literally state what gun it is lmao

Yeah i know Rheinmetall themselves state the Mk 30-2 ABM has an optional 600 RPM burst fire mode but obviously the Puma doesn’t have it, neither in game or real life sadly.

The gun is not the same as on the Puma, not even the early one, because the Puma one has an ABM programmer.

I was wrong in saying it looks like the Mk 30-1, the polish magazine photo looked weird and i thought it was the same muzzle device as on the Mk 30-1, in these 2 images below you can see they’re the same cannon both on M12 and Ascod, which is to say the Mk 30-2.

Spoiler

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Which importantly gives us cause for 770RPM like on ASCOD (Ulan)

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/okedyMKzzpc?t=34

Because a gun can fire that fast doesn’t mean it does the ulan also doesn’t fire at 770 rpm unless they have a switch (what they do because of limited ammo capacity) everything I found stated the same NATO
standard 200 rpm again for accuracy (this is for regular use)

Yes that’s how fast the gun can in theory fire but none has used it because unlike the Russians we focus on accuracy

Most likely the swiss who trialed the m12 had it limited to 200rpm or kuka themselves (rip kuka) limited it

The one in the video does fire at over 600 RPM, it only fires 5 rounds so probably only in some sort of burst mode, and the framerate is kind of low to do a more accurate measurement.

Because the Mk 30-2 ABM came with that 200 RPM limitation as it was fielded on the PUMA and they wanted better accuracy.

The older Mk 30-2 that are present on the ASCOD do have access to higher fire rate modes, even if only in bursts.
So it is entirely possible that the M12 has access to the same modes as ASCOD since they’re from the same time period, before the ABM and Puma were a thing.

There is no actual limit lmao that’s something done by the German army the gun can fire as as as the regular mk30-2 screenshot below is from rheinmetall about the mk30-2 abm
Screenshot_20260406-200112

It’s possible but really unlikely imo considering this again was a German/swiss program so it likely was limited to 200Rpm again for accuracy