Of course you only list the flat pen of that round so that it suits your argument lol.
2 Likes
Thodin being objective, mission impossible.
I doubt he has praise for even a single German vehicle.
3 Likes
Leopard 2A4: Explain why it deserves 10.7?
You claim that the Leopard 2A4 is one of the best 10.7 tanks when it’s spaded. So, explain how this “miracle” is better than the Leopard 2K?
- The 2K has thicker armor, is faster, and has an autocannon that helps in close-quarters combat. The 2A4 only has thermals. At these BRs, thermals aren’t a privilege, but a necessity to even stand a chance against Abrams and other tanks.
- Compared to the M60 120S, which, by the way, sits at 10.3, the Leopard 2A4 loses in every way except for speed. The M60 120S has an M829A1 shell with 600 mm of penetration at 100 meters, and it also has thermals.
- It’s simply unfair when I have to aim for weak spots on a tank covered in ERA, while I have nothing in return but a DM23 shell, which is completely useless.
This tank has absolutely awful horizontal gun traverse angles. If an enemy gets on your side more from behind or just behind you, you can’t kill them without turning your hull, and your vertical aiming immediately goes haywire. It’s ridiculous; this kind of flaw shouldn’t exist at such a high Battle Rating.
This entire situation with the Leopard 2A4 has nothing to do with skill. It’s just bad balance. This tank has one of the largest silhouettes at its BR, and any hit—whether to the turret or hull—leads to an instant death.
Objectively, the Leopard 2A4 is worse than the 2K in every aspect except for thermals. Yet, the 2K is at 10.0, and the 2A4 is at 10.7. Arguing about “skill” is illogical here, as players have no alternative. Unlike the 2K, which is at the end of a line, the Leopard 2A4 is a mandatory part of the tech tree that you have to grind to move forward.
This is a perfect example of terrible balance. All it would take is to remove this tank from the setup, and the entire German Rank 7 would become a comfortable 10.3.
So, please, name a single objective reason why this vehicle deserves its 10.7 Battle Rating.
For the love of everything that is holy, STOP. LOOKING. ONLY. AT. THE. STAT. CARD. FOR. ARMOR.
Go look at the protection analysis. It’s common knowledge that stat cards give little to no info about the armor of top tier MBTs. This just shows that either you are incredibly inexperienced at top tier or you didn’t check your AI translation.
It just happens that mobility is one of the most powerful tools at high/top tier.
Hard to take this seriously when you don’t even know where to look to for the true armor of top tier MBTs.
Go look at it some more before talking about stuff “objectively”.
It has the best balance of armor, gun handling, firepower and mobility. You can list a lot of tanks, but usually if they are exceptional in one category, they are really bad in one of the other.
The 2A4 is either just good or great in every category.
4 Likes
Leopard 2K also has 16x sight zoom which makes it a superior sniper, but no it doesn’t have more armor than Leopard 2A4 bro, the 2K has as much armor as the Leo 1 lol
1 Like
Ain’t anyone playing Leo 2K because of its armour. Delusional to think it’s better armoured than 2A4, lol.
1 Like
Bro, just explain why it deserves 10.7?
I’m ready to run a comparison in the armor viewer. Let’s see how an Abrams shot to the front of the turret on both the 2K and the 2A4 plays out in the game. You’ll see that one of them gets constant critical hits and ricochets, while the other gets one-shotted with every hit.
It’s not that the tank is bad or useless. It’s simply not suited for its Battle Rating. This tank is just fodder for other nations and nothing more.
You’re right, the Leopard 2A4’s armor isn’t meant to stop Abrams shells. But this lack of armor should be compensated for in some way. Instead, the 2A4 is worse than its contemporaries in almost every regard.
The DM23 round is useless against the armor of the tanks we have to fight at 10.7 or 11.7. This tank has no effective combat role:
- Sniping: It’s impossible. From a distance, you can’t hit weak spots, and a shot to the silhouette with a DM23 often results in a non-penetration, a minor critical hit on the commander, or at best a shot to the autoloader, leading to an immediate death. And without a laser warning system, it’s an easy target for aircraft and light tanks
- Flanking: This tank doesn’t have the mobility to effectively flank. For that role, Germany has the Radkampfwagen (10.0) and TAM 2C (10.3), which are faster and have more adequate rounds like DM33 and DM63 and lower BR.
- Frontal Assault: This tank isn’t designed for this. The DM23 is useless, and the tank itself is a massive target without any armor and autoloader like soviet T-80Б - (Considering that almost always any hit will knock out your loader or set the tank on fire, you simply won’t live to see the next shot)
The problem isn’t that the tank has bad armor, but that it’s not compensated for in any way. It doesn’t have a fast autoloader like the Kpz 70, no autocannon, and isn’t even fast. This tank is worse than its classmates in every aspect, yet it sits at a higher BR.
This is a perfect example of terrible balance. If you were to remove the Leopard 2A4 from the lineup, the entire German Rank 7 would become a comfortable 10.3 because almost all the other vehicles don’t exceed that rating. Instead, this one vehicle at 10.7 forces the entire lineup to fight at 11.7. That’s absurd; it shouldn’t be that way.
400mm pen DM21 is just insufficient for this BR bracket.
A lot of what you type screams skill issue much more than it screams a tank issue.
It can definitely snipe, it’s more of a question if you can snipe.
- The TAM 2C doesn’t have flat out better mobility
- ffs 105mm DM33 is not that much different from 120mm DM23.
Below are the pen of 105mm DM33 and 120mm DM23, which do you think is which:
Spoiler
Again there is more to a frontal assault than just armor and penetration, you just aren’t experienced enough to use those factors.
The Kpz has a 6 second autoloader, the 2A4 has a 6 second ace reload and 6.3 second expert reload.
2A4 remains one of the best 10.7, that isn’t going to change no matter how bad you play it.
4 Likes
I was gonna quote some of the things you said and respond but I realised I can just like, point to the existence of the TTD.
The TTD has a slight edge in armour, which doesn’t matter much against things like BM42 or the rounds it sees in uptiers. Anything with more than ~350mm pen can just shoot through the composite blocks either side of the gun and make it through comfortably. Shooting the side with the commander and gunner can hit the bustle ammo stowage as well as kill those two crew.
The TTD is heavier with a weaker engine. A stock 2A4 has better mobility than a spaded TTD.
The TTD has a 105mm with the standard 6.7s reload, in return for DM63, which looks to be better than DM23/M774/L23A1, and about on par with 120mm DM33. It’s worth noting that the Olifant Mk.2 at 9.3 also gets DM63.
The TTD has worse gun handling. It also lacks any form of MG.
There’s also the Vickers Mk.7 which makes quite a few tradeoffs in return for the L26 round. Maybe you should give these two MBTs in the UK tree a try?
1 Like
It’s been a long while since I saw this much skill issues in one single post.
3 Likes
Yeah, that sucks, can’t even remove any bushes obscuring your view without shooting them with main gun or trying to run them over.
Actual good tank, though
This entire comment chain was a headache to read.
1:
Leopard 2a4 has your avr 12.0 mobility with 27hp/t 1500hp engine going at 68km/h forwards & 32km/h backwards at BR 10.7.
2:
Its gun handling is 40°/s for vertical & horizontal with -9 for aiming limits aka literal 12.0 handling at 10.7.
3:
The only sub bar parts of the vehicle are its armor & firepower of which the former had its armor profile nerfed to 105mm dm23 levels and with the latter only being 50mm behind in penetration compared to its contemporaries like 3bm42, l26 & 1985-I.
So all in all it has nearly everything you could need in a vehicle to be efficient at its br range.
1 Like
Holy s*** what is this giant post of misinformation?
3 Likes
Then what are you giving the M1 Abrams at the same BR who is currently using an ancient dart worse than your dm13 dart?
Then what does the Ariete do at 10.7? The singular only upside it has over a 2a4 is that it carries DM33.
What about the other dozen of MBTs and tanks at this BR that are, as of right now, worse than the Leopard 2A4?
So name two, thats right, TWO better tanks at 10.7?
Probably the fact it’s better than almost every other tank up to and including its BR of 10.7.
The 2A4 is currently the strongest 10.7 MBT to my knowledge. What do you think happens when it gets buffed?
1 Like
lets inject some sense into this thread.
what the issue really is that 10.7 gets uptiered ALL THE TIME.
we dont need a better round or a lower BR.
we need a Leopard 2A4 Baulos 8 with DM33/DM43 and C-tech armour (at 11.0 ofcourse). And less upteiring because that ruins the fun. obv that means less down tiering as well.
in case someone needs to know, theres already a suggestion so you can go read it before you think about what to say:
IMO, Germany needs a fun 11.0 lineup. it should ideally consist of the following:
Leopard 2A4 (1991),
Leopard 2A’5’ MUSS Demonstrator,
Puma VJTF,
UH Tiger (Early/2011),
Su-22M4 (with some changes such as extra CM and weaponry),
FlaRakRad 6x6 (no VT-1, thermals, stabiliser, smaller chassis and fixed missile tracking, lead/intercept mode)
OR FlaRakPz 1A2 (same features as above but on marder chassis),
Leopard 2 AWiSS,
Marder 2 (option to switch calibres as well as PARS 3 MR),
and finally,
PT-06/T-14 mod (basically a tech tree PT-16/T-14 mod)
Doesn’t look like a 11.0 MBT to be honest.
fair enough, lemme get the 2A4 which is a 2A5 wannabe
Leopard 2A’5’ MUSS Demonstrator: Active Leopard
That one is interesting and definitely worth being in the game.
1 Like