Let us disable enemy decorators and bushes

Wow did we touch a nerve? How is any of what I said a “made up story”?

Fact 1) Paying players should get a time advantage, over FTP because well they support the game. I’d rather that than an actual PTW mechanic.
Fact 2) A proportion of FTP players do tend to moan a lot over things they can’t have whilst at the same time complaining about those that do support the game financially. They don’t moan about the company, they moan about the players making that contribution.
Fact 3) Is not a PTW mechanic, since its not behind a paywall.

Only person here with a self inflated ego is yourself making out that without F2P the game would die, think you will find its the opposite way around. No money means no game, there are still thousands of paying players out there.

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It is behind a battlepass which if you have a job or attend university and don’t only play GRB, you cannot satisfy.

Most days I want to play air sim. Air sim tasks don’t really work because 1 match is 60-90 minutes and you can only complete 1 battlepass task per match. You could abandon early but if you do you might not find a new lobby to play.

Occasionally I feel like playing GRB. More often, I’d rather play GSB but the lineup system means I can only play like 1 day per week and if I’m not in the mood that day I’m SoL.

Therefore, progressing the battlepass is a no-go.

If bushes operated like crew skills - which mind you, I bloody hate - I’d not complain and despise their existence so much.

Earlier in the thread I’d compared bushes against other grinds.

The key difference?

In OSRS, I could spend 10 bonds to buy a bow of faerdhinen for 80 dollars.

Or I can take an on average 50 hour grind and do it:

  1. Be insane and play 8 hours each day and finish it in 1 week of vacation.
  2. Be a commited player and play 1 hour each day then 4 hours on saturday and sunday (5+8=13 per week, so about 4 weeks, so about 1 month)
  3. Be a casual player and play 4 hours each weekend (8 hours per week, so about 7 weeks due to how rounding works if we only play weekends)
  4. Play 16 hours in january, play 30 hours in august, play 4 hours in december.

All of these are equivalent. All of these yield the same expected result.

Of course, it being an RNG drop one might earn it faster than the other but that RNG is independent of how you spend your time, only that you invest it.

Make bushes work like the Bow of faerdhinen grind.

Also as disclaimer:

I have paid for and own 2 premium aircraft. I dislike subscription services due to my tendency to get randomly obsessed and then burn out. OSRS is fine due to being able to sell my GP to people who buy bonds and subscribe using my loot that I earn without FOMO or time constraints. This winter sale I might buy some more planes, depending on my whims of caring about planes or not caring at that time.

Ah a much more sensible response, thank you.

Yes it is behind a BP but the BP is free so whilst its not easy for those with little time, such as yourself, it is still “available”. I do think though that the bushes should be available at all times through the BP or even the item shop rather than how they are now.

Wow did we touch a nerve?

Indeed we did.

You already get double RP and SL… Bushes are not time advantage.

A proportion of FTP players do tend to moan a lot over things they can’t have whilst at the same time complaining about those that do support the game financially.

This is made up by you.

Is not a PTW mechanic, since its not behind a paywall.

It is behind a paywall. I played for 2.6k hours and i never got a free bush.

Only person here with a self inflated ego is yourself making out that without F2P the game would die, think you will find its the opposite way around. No money means no game, there are still thousands of paying players out there.

I’m not the one looking down on anyone, my ego is fine

Obviously the paying players are giving gajinga the revenue. That’s why i said F2P players keep the game relevant. Gaijin said that 80% of the players never payed anything, so take that away from the game and you’re stuck playing by yourself. So don’t go look down on them just because you paid for some bushes.

I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. They are a time advantage in that by paying for RL money you gain the ability/item quicker than someone who earns the item for free through the game. Which Bushes are, like all other mechanics, crew skills, modifications etc.

It is not behind a paywall, since you can earn them for free. Most of my bushes are free and even a number of my aced crews. The definition is that you can earn them for free or unlock them quickly for money, there is no “you must pay for the advantage” mechanic.

And I am not looking down on anyone either. I am just tired of being made out to be some villain because I support the notion that bushes are not a PTW mechanic.

Bushes, if completely covering a tank, may give you a novel advantage over a new player but experienced players know how to counter bushes and ignore them, whether they are FTP or not. And since bushes have already been nerfed to satisfy the people who moan about them all the time, to then ask for more is going to far in my opinion.

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you gain the ability/item quicker
It is not behind a paywall, since you can earn them for free

I’m so tired of this dumb argument. Just because you can get them after thousands of hours doesn’t make it less pay to win.

I am just tired of being made out to be some villain because I support the notion that bushes are not a PTW mechanic.

Then stop having this opinion. Nobody is out for you because you use bushes. If the game offers such advantage, it’s the human instinct to use it. The game should’ve not allowed it in the first place.
Stop defending it with dumb arguments “Guys you can actually get it for free if you play the next 100 years.”. Stop arguing semantics.

Pay to win, pay to progress, pay to skip, pay to revive, pay to sleep, pay to blah blah blah. It’s all the same

Hey guys, i got the M1 KVT for free after i paid it. That’s how these arguments sound.

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Pick one

Because something is theorically possible does not make it a resonable mark to reach.

True but i don’t see how that’s an argument, there are not only experienced players in this game. Regarding experienced players, i will also add that while your statement is someone true, between 2 people of similar skill, the one without bushes will probably take a few centiseconds more to aim, and that can be life or death in more situations than you may think

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And I am tired of this argument. If you don’t want to earn them in the grind and you don’t want to pay for them stop complaining! I don’t disagree that the grind is a big one, it is but stop saying its P2W when its clearly P2P.

I won’t stop having an opposing opinion and clearly your opening post was. Whether they should have had them or not, well again that could start being applied to anything in game and just ends up going down a rabbit hole.

Again with the insults, these are not dumb arguments, they are facts. You can get them free or pay for them. Whether its a fair grind or not is a different argument and one I can agree with you on, it should be better but to straight up say its dumb… that’s either dishonest or just abusive.

I never said it wasn’t unreasonable but it still clearly is fact. It can be earned and people do and frequently have earned them for free.

It “could” give you a slight advantage but to be honest even in your scenario there are so many other things that can affect the outcome that are we really saying that bushes are going to give such a big edge as to be classified PTW? If that’s really the case and you are always dying to someone with bushes, do we not start to say “skill issue”? I mean the same argument can be made for the vehicle your playing, how many mods you have, how much crew skills. All these things are factors but you’re not going to see people mention that as often as they do this.

The fact is what this type of thread always boils down to is “This thing caused me to die, this thing must be nerfed or removed because I can’t effectively counter it and I don’t want to spend the time earning it or paying for it”. You see it in threads all over these forums.

IMO yes

And you still forget about people who are not that skilled

Not even thinking to check your surrounding is a thing, not seeing something under your nose even if you are looking because someone paid to hide in plain sight is an other

Bushes have not caused me to die for quite a while now, people who abuse them are usually… quite predictible and far too overconfident shall we say

But just because some people can spot them and deal with them easily, does not mean it’s balanced in any way and not a PTW feature, just like top tier CAS used to not be balanced even if you could technically counter it with CAP.

Something beeing counterable dos not make it balanced, because it completely forgets the “how hard is it to counter” part

Again, problem is they cannot be earned through normal gameplay. The battlepass is a terrible system that is incompatible with people who play multiple game modes and if their game modes include those with long matches. I’d recently played an ASB match. Over the course of 60 minutes I completed my medium task. Maybe I’d have also completed my hard task but I could not as I did not get the ability to accept completion until after I left the match (it ended naturally).

I’ve used up my alloted time to play Warthunder. It’s 23:00, I’m tired and I’m going back to watching stuff and relaxing doing stuff that takes less active effort.

I tried to do the battlepass last winter between semesters and what did it lead to? I did hit level 54 but… there were no bushes to buy and I legitimately started dreading the game. I wanted to play SBEC but I could not: I must play my tanks even if I was not in a mood and play specific tanks for which I was especially not in the mood. Want to play Rank 3/4 Britain? Battle pass says you gotta hetzer it up because it needs a tank destroyer. If the wolverine/hellcats were still classed as tank destroyers it wouldn’t be so bad as you’d get to use them but they’re not. Same for the obliged heavy tank use.

But those are the least of the contributors that made me burn out on them. It was the tasks that rely on win + something else. Assuming an average player - you expect 1 match to be a fifty:fifty whether it’s won or lost. Now a fun and ideal match lasts a good 15-20 minutes.

Win 3 times, satisfy some random secondary objective. That’s 45-60 minutes of gameplay assuming you win all three. Heaven forbid you spend 6 games to get those 3 wins. That is unless you figure that one-death leaving lets you still satisfy the secondary objective in 5 minutes and then let the match gamble whether it’s a win or loss.

And again, the whole time you just want to go and play a nice and long match with your planes.

And we haven’t even considered people only want to play ground simulator battles! Fixed lineups so you cannot even satisfy the battlepass requirements and it may be that day only rank 2 tanks are available and so you’re entirely out of luck. At least in ASB I could abandon lobbies earlier after satisfying the requirement and find a new one. Those who play GSB cant even play in the first place at times!

Until bushes are possible to be earned throughout the year - no alternating battlepass, no daily log-in requirement lest you fail to meet the limited time allotment to earn a specific level and consequently lose all your progress with nothing to show to your name, no arbitrary restrictions on what you can do to achieve it.

Ideally, I’d have bushes work like the already-existing camoflague system:

Get a fixed number of kills or RP or score with a given vehicle in any allotment of time.
When you have achieved that requirement - it can be absurd, I would prefer it be player-friendly but even a 100 hour grind is better than the battlepass - you roll for three bushes (can be duplicate) for that tank and that tank alone.
After another 100 hour grind (arbitrary number), you roll again for three bushes.

And I mean it by any allotment of time.

If I go insane and play 10 hours each day for 10 days straight, give me the roll!
If I burn out and play 1 hour each week for 100 weeks, give me the roll!
And any variation in between and beyond.

Do this, and while I’d complain about the absurd length of things as I do for crew skills’ present implementation - I will stop calling it pay to win as it then becomes available and legitimately possible to be achieved for everyone, not just those who play 2-3 hours every single day.

I don’t disagree that the grind is a big one, it is but stop saying its P2W when its clearly P2P.

Semantics, it’s the same thing. I’m not sure why you insist dying on this hill.
Again, i have 2600 hours in the game and i didn’t get any free bush. How many thousands of hours before i get to “progress” without paying?

clearly your opening post was

My opening post was about you talking down on F2P players, not because you use bushes.

that could start being applied to anything in game and just ends up going down a rabbit hole.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

Again with the insults, these are not dumb arguments, they are facts. You can get them free or pay for them.

Indeed, these are facts. You can get them after thousand of hours maybe. But arguing that it isn’t p2w just because you can unlock them on your death bed is rather silly even tho, technically you are correct.

Let’s put it this way. You can unlock an item after 100 years. but you will most certainly be in the heaven server by then. Defending such practice as not being pay to win is silly, because technically you can indeed unlock the item without paying, but the time is absurd. I hope you understand the necessity of such exaggeration.

stop complaining!

I will most definitely do no such thing

It’s not that deep

Since you cannot buy them for Warbonds anymore(I don’t see them in my WB shop) and I don’t see them for free in the free BP section and only available for GE in the decorations sector, praytell, how do you go about earning them for free?
Even when they were free in the WB shop with a random bush box, you needed to max out the BP to get them. I never got nor used bushes because I refuse to use an unfair mechanic that is unavailable to most people in the game.

“JuSt Mg ThEm BrO”
Sure, lemme empty my 7.62mm Challenger 2 mag onto the Leo 2’s front plastered with P2W bushes and not shoot a single one off because they’ve been stuck on there with JB weld and require a 500lb bomb minimum to blast them off.

There is no way one can logically defend their introduction into the game as they currently are and there is no point in trying to make an argument for them to be the way they are now. The only thing that should be argued is that they should be turned off like any other decorator if you wanted to not see them or make them available to EVERYONE through simply just leveling up your account.

So you want to have a button to nullify something that I put time and effort into getting, because you are to lazy to put the time and effort into getting it yourself?
Would you like a button to turn of my crew skills next? Because it’s obviously unfair that I have put time effort into improving them and you have not!

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They are cycled into the BPs in place of the helmet or sign crates. Should they be in every BP, yes, should they be moved to the item shop instead, yes, should they include a new mechanic to grind them like Ace crews, yes but does that mean people who earned or bought them should be penalised because others, notably FTP players don’t want to either pay or earn them, NO!

Yes you can logically argue that they stay the way they are, otherwise what’s next you going to complain about not having the E100 and that it should be nerfed or completely removed? What about the actual things you can’t get access too like the Coelian, you going to demand that people have them removed because you don’t have one?

No that is not the only argument, you are basically removing something people have earned or paid for. How is that in any way fair? That’s like you saving your money to buy a car and then your neighbour complains that he has to walk to work, so no car for you or else remove its engine.

*sigh * they are available to everyone. They may be time locked into the BPs, like the Maus but they are still available to everyone.

Now this, I have no issue with, this is a valid point and I do advocate for more ways to get them and they should be available all year round.

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They where indestructible when they where introduced, making them destructible was a considerable nerf, but a fair compromise.
While I am not a fan of them tying the war bond shop to the battle pass and alternating the rewards, you can still easily get decorations to hide weak spots like MG ports, they are not as good as bushes, but you cant tell me “Set 20 fires with rank 2 ground vehicles” to get 6 jerry cans is “too hard”

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It’s not semantics, its a clear definition. Pay to win is something overpowered locked behind an RL paywall. Pay to progress is a mechanism to skip lengthy grinding. It’s a big difference, just because you don’t agree with it, doesn’t make it so.

I wasn’t talking down to FTP players, and if it came across that way then I apologise. Instead I was talking down to people who are demanding something be nerfed or removed because they either don’t want to earn them through the grind or pay to skip it like other players do. And its usually those players who don’t support the game in any way that are the most vocal.

Not at all, the basis of this whole argument is that because they don’t have bushes, don’t want to buy them and don’t want to earn them and it gives a slight advantage to players who do, their answer is nerf them/remove them.

Ok so say they remove bushes what’s next?

Oh this person has Ace crew and I don’t nerf it/remove it.
Oh this person has a better tank I don’t have, nerf it/remove it.
Oh this person has a camo that makes them slightly more difficult to see, nerf it/remove it.
Oh this person has a round/missle that is better than mine, nerf it/remove it… and on and on and on… see rabbit hole.

Thank you! You agree. Again I will stick to the correct definition of PTP, you may disagree and like to lump the two terms together but they are very different. If you ever played a game like Mobile Strike you would understand.

Now if you want to argue about something that is PTW in WT? Then arguably the T58 comes to mind, that certainly IS a PTW item, very overpowered and can only be purchased with RL currency but again should it be removed? My answer is still, no.

As for the length of time to get them, I agree, it’s lengthy but it is achievable since many players do it.

defending multimillion dollar corporation really got your ass moving like 2011 Messi.

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I had to heart your comment, it made me laugh!

To be clear though I don’t defend Gaijin, I defend players who have spent their time and effort or their hard earned money to obtain an item and keep it without being penalised.