the way you keep saying “but its not p2w” when all semblance of logic says “it is p2w with an illusion of F2P” does makes you sound like Gaijin ardent defender. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING about your argument up to the point where I said that you move like prime neymar are you Justifying everything Gaijin did with semantic that defend Gaijin position than the player. that’s all.
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That’s because people keep bandying the term pay to win, without actually understanding what pay to win actually is.
I’ll give you an example of a real PTW game.
In Mobile Strike you had to buy packs in order to survive. The packs would offer new items and soldiers and if you didn’t get those packs you could not compete, and I mean at all. Even if you had 1 million level 1 soldiers a guy with the latest pack and 1000 new level 2 soldiers could literally wipe you out, take all your stuff and you would end up with nothing to start your base from scratch with.
What was even worse is that packs had a shelf life up until the next new pack, usually every two to three weeks and even worse than that your pack costs would double each time you bought one. Not because the pack had more to offer but simply because you had bought a pack previously. Some players where literally paying $1000’s to get the next pack. It was absurd.
That is a PTW game.
Gaijin for all their faults, does not do something this scummy or anywhere close to scummy as this. They offer their game for free, to all, with at least some avenue to obtain almost all items in game.
Their model is PTP, either grind it or pay to get it.
Are they perfect? No. Could they do better? Yes. However when people keep saying WT is a PTW game, they have literally no idea what PTW game is.
At this point of the discussion, it’s all semantic.
NGL falling for war thunder Predatory monetization is one thing. Falling for a CoC clone predatory monetization especially after Raid shadow legends got exposed is something else.
So focus on this. if all you do is getting your pants tight over the definition of P2W then all people see in you is a Shill for the Corpo. the issue is satanic monetization with blatant advantages given by said monetization AND slimy F2P Avenue to those “severely monetized” product so they can feign technicality. You and I know that those avenues are either impossible or require you to be a NEET and only exist to snake out of any lawsuit. By emphasizing those F2P avenue instead of their borderline Epstein level of predatory monetization, you have lost a leg in the discussion.
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It’s really not, there is a clear definition, people who keep saying its semantics, clearly don’t understand the difference.
Basically your argument comes down to, “I want their game and everything in it for free”. Reality check, free to play games need to make money to survive, no one is “falling” for it, you have a choice to play WT whether for free or not no one is forcing you to play this game. If you really hate WT’s monetization so much then I suggest you play something that doesn’t offend your morals as much or would you rather them to switch to a pay to play model instead? I believe a vast number of players would rather play the game for free with limitations than the later.
Ok let me get through this word salad.
I “get my pants” in a twist because people moaning about bushes and other things always declare them as PTW, when they are not. If you can’t even figure out what the mechanic is, how on earth can you argue a case against it?
Just because I defend the rights of players who earned the item for free by grinding them or paid to obtain the item with their hard earned cash, does not mean I “shill for the corpo”.
I am just sick of people who are completely ignorant of actual PTW mechanics, using the term as some sort of cudgel against those players who put their time or money into the game to get the items they are moaning they don’t have. It’s entitled and it’s lazy.
If your problem is with Gaijins monetization, then make it about their monetization, stop playing their game and stop supporting them. Raise threads specifically about their monetization being predatory. That’s how you go against their monetization, not by demanding that X item be removed or nerfed from other players because YOU don’t have it and don’t want to take the time to get it.
I really don’t see that I have.
My comrade-in-arms, if you think that 80-dollar premium is a reasonable price for a 3d model with movement, gunnery, and damage codes then You were never in for player, but for the shareholder wallet wellbeing. Literally nobody in this game would complain if they capped prem vehicle price at $40-$50.
And up to this very post I haven’t said anything about Pricing in this thread. I said it is alright if you spend money on war thunder because there is infinitely more fun in controlling a tank plane or ship than paying 3000 USD for CoC ripoff pack that has Arnold Schwarzenegger in there. How are you jumping to my grievances about their monetization or the lack of Regional pricing is really suspicious.
Your arguments across the thread, in case you have some kind of short-term memory loss issue have been about “modern” war thunder free bush acquisition practices being fair. if you were to defend player who earned the item you would instead gun for a more player-friendly method to acquire the bush instead of defending the current “F2P” acquisition method, by doing that you don’t alienate the player who wasn’t in the game when bush was 200GE a pop with 5 bushes in a bundle and antagonize player who bought 5 bush for 200GE at the same time.
And being anal about the thread topic
like this
Really does not help because practically every thread about “F2P” element in this game will always, and I mean always loop back to people pointing out an allegedly F2P method that require a part time or at least a summer job kind of time investment. OP suggestion might be kind of rtrded but that does not mean that you have to follow his logic to the T. Alternative always exists. if you choose to laser on OP’s frankly lunatic suggestion than throwing in alternative that does not make other player lost then it’s not a stretch to assume that you like the status quo and in it for Gaijin annual shareholder meeting.
well you lost it. ofc you can’t see it.
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Ok we seem to be shifting the goal posts a little away from the OP but ill bite. I don’t think I ever advocated for $80 for a 3D model, anywhere, ever. So this is just putting words in my mouth.
In fact I made a thread (now removed by the moderators) about how Gaijin should slash the cost of premium vehicle packs to something more reasonable like $30 because they would sell a lot more packs, all year round, rather than at a limited time during sales and I truly believe that.
And you don’t have too, that’s because that is not the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss pricing, sure thing and I imagine we will agree on most aspects of pricing but lets not hijack someone else’s topic to do so.
Maybe I misunderstood your comment or meaning but it seemed more like “You da sucker” than anything else.
Think you need to go back and re-read everything. All I have ever said is players who obtained/earned the items shouldn’t be penalised by those who choose not too.
I have, several times. Again re-read my posts. I have said a number of times that the items should be available all year round and not just in the BP. I have also said they should be obtainable, just like crew skills, just by playing the game without the need for an in-game currency.
I am merely sticking to the point of the OP. If others then have to keep meandering into other related subjects, such as pricing of premiums and monetisation practices of businesses using the FTP model to try and justify the OP because they can’t really counter my arguments then that’s on them.
I am not the one changing the subject, as you say “being anal about the OP”, so no I haven’t lost it.
I mean kinda. but being a sucker for F2P PC games is infinitely better than being a sucker for CoC ripoff and I am not ashamed to say that I love war thunder and I want to see it be more accommodating to the player while adding more player that pay through cost reduction of monetized item.
Okay so we’re in the same boat. Thanks for confirming. I know I sound offensive and I don’t mind you not forgiving me for that.
Honestly OP kinda got a point. decoration should stay decoration. but if they dont want to disable that then the best course we can have is make them grindable like regular camo. And you did advocate for this.
I was talking about the leg. not the subject.
Brother. There is no “Pay to Progress”. Again, i have 2600 hours, that’s 108 days of non-stop gameplay and i never got a free bush.
I would 100% agree with your “p2p” argument if it took a dozen hours or so for unlocking them. Then, yes. That is definitely more accurate to say pay to progress or pay to skip, since you would get them relatively fast for free.
I started playing in 2014 and stopped after an update nuked the humble performance i had. Then i came back in 2019. That’s 7 years i’ve been on and off and i never got a single free bush.
Do you not see how absurd you sound when you say this is “pay to progress”?
Bushes are fairly easy to get through the warbond shop.
We don’t have bushes in the current warbond shop and it lasts 3 months… but yeah, “fairly easy”
No worries, I know these debates can get heated but yes in general we are on the same page.
I am not sure what to tell you, I only started playing 4 years ago and I have about 7 or eight Aced crews, a number of bushes, decorations and signs. All free. The fact people can, and do, earn them, means they are not PTW. I can totally agree that the grind is far too long for what these things are but it doesn’t change that fact.
And lets flip this on its head, you clearly realise how long it takes to grind them because you are unable to do so after such a long timespan in the game. So how would you feel if you did actually grind them out and made that effort for someone to come along and demand the item you earned is removed or nerfed because they don’t have it?
If your main complaint, which it appears to be, is that the grind is far too high. Yes you’re correct and as I have advocated in this thread many times, it needs to be addressed and there need to be more ways to earn them but it still doesn’t change the fact its not PTW and its not fair to penalise people who have earned or paid for them.
the problem is more than just requires many hours to grind but the process to get it is also very specific. it’s more than just play the game but you also have to twist some hips here and fuck a goat there to realize those bushes.
And that’s one of the most frustrating aspect of war thunder. so many of the alleged F2P process are SO, and i mean SO CONVOLUTED you’re better off paying.
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Having both maxed and non-maxed crews in ASB, I still advocate for removing crew skills personally.
Why?
I believe that given the same vehicle, players should experience the same outcomes given the same in-game context and inputs.
Crew skills change that, and such is antithetical to a PvP game.
Bushes are the same.
In a PvP game, if one player should obtain a statistical advantage over another player, my belief is that such should be unlocked as part of the match progression through resource acquisition (ala Dota 2, counter strike, movie battles 2 and so forth).
Having different vehicles/heroes available is fine in my book as those get balanced more or less through the BR system but bushes and crew skills aren’t. This should be the main and only monetisation: Time to obtain new toys that play equivalent to other toys of the same type, occasional exclusive variants of said toys (Paddy’s Corsair versus generic corsair. Tada’s Ki-61 versus generic Ki-61 and so forth).
For out-of game influence on in-game outcomes, the most I find fair is equivalent of a drafting stage - spending limited resources on spawn to modify the equipment (SP cost for bushes maybe?).
The equivalent would be LoL’s modern rune system compared to the original.
However, I can concede at least that making bushes obtainable like camouflages or crew skills would be a marked improvement over the present FOMO method.
I got like 4-5 just from warbond shops.
So how would you feel if you did actually grind them out and made that effort for someone to come along and demand the item you earned is removed or nerfed because they don’t have it?
I have paid 5000 GE for 10 bushes and i would gladly have them removed from my account without compensation if it meant we would get rid of unfair p2w mechanics.
I have about 7 or eight Aced crews, a number of bushes, decorations and signs. All free.
And it only took you a mere 10.000 games
I don’t see any in the current warbond shop.