Just How Bad is the US SPAA Line?

[KaizerLeviath]

Might as well have the game play itself at that point.
Shouldn’t the idea be to push the players to better themselves instead of holding their hand?

[ZendikarHaven]

Gepard is only limited due to APDS being different in size and having a reserve belt for that purpose.

[Lyn_poster]

@GoneToTheAether

The 40mm Bofors cannon is missing APDS rounds derived from the round on the Swedish reserve cannon (the Bofors AA gun is Swedish in origin and license-built by everyone else). Most likely said round is compatible with both the L/60 and L/70 versions.

The bofors 37mm fires 37×258 mm
The bofors 40mm L/60 fires 40x311 mm it cannot fire a 37mm APDS round, the only APDS designed for the 40mm was only intended for the VEAK-40 which uses 40x364 mm meaning its also incompatible with the 40mm bofors that the US uses

@GoneToTheAether

I would give the HE-VT round and APDS to the M42 Dusters, AMX-13 DCA, Leopard 40/70, and anything higher in BR. Similarly I would give other nations’ similar guns at the same BR threshold or higher any missing APCR/APDS they had.

This would ruin the SPAA line for most nations, the duster would immediately be put to 7.0 minimum and the same would happen for all the other SPAA.

@GoneToTheAether

Separately, I think all SPAAGs in Realistic should have lead indicators out to 1.0/1.5km vs aircraft only for a stock/aced crew, as should all SPHs/SPAs with HE-TF/HE-VT rounds loaded. Why? Because planes and helicopters fly unrealistically, and the reasons (mouse aim & 3rd person camera) will never be removed since they’re too integral to selling the game, hence artificially increasing SPAAG, SPH, and SPA hit chance vs aircraft to compensate.

Your poor aim is not reason enough to give all SPAA lead indicators

[VonMarder]

the what ever sandbox is RB and AB, historical szenarios are not in. Its maybe a little semi historical in SIM.

[Exocetta]

The game pretends to historical accuracy.

[ZendikarHaven]

@GoneToTheAether

I would place the affected SPAAGs at the following BRs. All are assuming my aforementioned short-range lead markers also being a thing:

Lvkv 42 1.0 when…

[Sawonian]

I think M19/M42 is totally fine until you start to get jets on the enemy team, people just need to stop spamming their gun SPAA at a maneuvering plane from 3km distance just to give away their position and that they are present. The plane is not gonna do any bombing from 3km’s when youre at 4.0-6.0 BR range. Most of the time one shot is enough to bring a plane down.

What gaijin should have done already is given SPAA a reticle that they use in real life, i have a custom spider sights and its doing wonders. Also a tutorial for new players how to deal with CAS should be taught.

[MR_BOOMBASTICc]

Yeah the M19/M42 or the m16 is not the solution for using it up until the m163. The m42 really sucks at killing CAS really up close. Its prob better at killing tanks but again, you can get machinegunned or die instantly because you are surrounded by ammo. Just get new spaa.
And just don’t say its a skill issue, its not. That does not help solve the question. Those people have no respect. Plus they’re just evading the question too.

[Dinfire]

You mean like players deliberately being distracted or interrupting shots?

[Tubby_Vermin]

I don’t understand what you mean when you refer to my previous comment. Could you please clarify?

being distracted or interrupting shots?

The Whole question is about how bad the US SPAA Line is, and my answer is not just about the vehicles but the TEAM on the Map itself, its about TEAMWORK and COHESION, marking on the map, calling out targets working together.

The game is literally a big game of Rock, Paper, Scissors

[SanguineSerpent]

M163 isn’t even that good either. There are far better options at 7.7, like the ZSU-37-2 and VEAK 40.
USA SPAA only gets reasonably good at 9.0. Imp Chaparral at 9.3 is okay, but I believe the ZSU-23M4 is better or the Type 93. LAV-AD is pretty decent, but the XM875 is really bad, and is only suitable against unaware opponents who fly in a straight line, or for helicopters.

[Pangolin_Fan]

America gets nothing good between 4.0-9.0 an effing 5.0 br gap of SPAA. even then, both the M42/M19 and the M247 are lacking compared to other nation’s SPAA. I don’t have it yet, but I’ve heard the Chapparal also underperforms.

Meanwhile when the strela was moved up and left a 1.0 br gap for SPAA, Gajin added a new overpowered bs to take its spot within a week.

[SanguineSerpent]

@GoneToTheAether

The Falcon should be 8.0 at most, to fit alongside the Centurion Mk.10 and Vickers MBT. It has no radar, but has fast-enough-firing guns that with a short range lead marker like I proposed earlier would enable it to hit low-flying jets very easily. It’s the same APDS the Fox has on its single cannon.

I can see that being reasonable. However, I don’t even think a short-range lead marker is needed for this vehicle, as it has one of the best turret rotation speeds out of most SPAAs as its BR.

@GoneToTheAether

L-62 ANTI: due to slow turret traverse, this belongs at no higher than 3.7, maybe even 3.3. It’s most similar to the ZUT-37 premium for Russia.

That’s reasonable, but I don’t think the ZUT-37 should change in BR. It’s pretty much a auto-light tank at 2.3, not an SPAA.

@GoneToTheAether

Lvkv 42: with the lead marker and APDS and HE-VT, I could see this comfortably going up to 5.7-6.0, but no higher due to its very limited ammo supply.

This one is somewhat controversial. A 6.0 SPAA with 125mm of pen APDS, very good turret rotation speed, decently mobile (though its acceleration is rather lacking), very good firerate (~200 rounds a minute) for a single 40mm bofor. And HE-VT? With the APDS alone, I could see it being 5.7 or even 6.0. Sure, the ammo capacity is low, but with how aggressive you can play with the Lvkv42’s APDS, I don’t see why you can’t go to a capture point (especially with friendlies). I think the addition of 4m trigger radius HE-VT (maybe the same as the BILL’s) would make it very good against aircraft and warrants a BR of 7.0 or 7.3.
For comparison, the ZSU-57-2 is also at 7.0, and it shoots roughly 120 rounds a minute with no proxy HE.

@GoneToTheAether

M42 Dusters: with lead marker and APDS, plus being on a generally better platform than the Lvkv, 6.3 minimum. The Raduster you mentioned would be indeed great at 7.0 with HE-VT and sabot, but its still a Duster so any higher would be lunacy. Even if it would be borderline outright fake like the APCR on the KT105, I would still be in favor of giving the Raduster HE-VT, given that the ordinary Duster was still in service as its planned successor M247 was being developed.

I would say the duster has better acceleration and overall mobility, and the ammo count definitely helps, but it doesn’t have the turret traverse speed or gun handling than the Lvkv 42. The M42 has the same firerate as the Lvkv 42 (given that the M42’s guns are out of sync with one another). With that being said, APDS and HE-VT would also warrant a BR of 7.3 or 7.7. For comparison, the WZ305 shoots roughly 120 rounds per minute with 57mm proxy HE.

@GoneToTheAether

Leopard 40/70: with lead marker, HE-VT, and APDS, this could honestly be as high as 8.0 to match the Leopard 1 it is based upon.

I agree with that.

@GoneToTheAether

AMX-13 DCA: the chassis always felt like a worse M41 to me, and thus using the Duster as a yardstick, no higher than 6.0 with lead marker and APDS, or 6.7 with lead marker, HE-VT, and APDS.

I would say with HE-VT and APDS, this would be at a similar level to the M42 Duster, which would be at 7.3 or 7.7. Maybe higher due to the turret rotation speed (albeit the acceleration is just as bad as the Lvkv 42).

@GoneToTheAether

The VEAK 40 and M247 should be 8.3-8.7 with radar, HE-VT, and APDS. Absolutely no higher, however.

I don’t see why the VEAK 40 and M247 should be at the anywhere close to where the current 8.3 / 8.77 SPAAs are, such as the Gepard, Type 87, ZA-35… etc. Move them up to 9.3 if they get APDS and HE-VT.

@GoneToTheAether

Ostwind: with lead marker and APCR it would be worthy at least at 5.0, if not 5.7.

I agree with this. I think it should go to 5.0 with APCR, just like with the AMX-13 DCA 40 is at the moment.

@GoneToTheAether

Ostwind II: with the above, but greater firepower density, this cannot go lower than 6.3.

Yes, twice the firerate just makes the Ostwind that much better. I couldn’t agree more.

@GoneToTheAether

Kugelblitz: with restored 95mm pen on MK103 HVAP, return of the full HVAP belt, and lead marker, this could go as high as 6.7, but no higher.

I can see it staying at 6.7.

@GoneToTheAether

Kugelwind (Zerstorer 45): with the same as above, but the open top vulnerable to .50cal spam and overpressure, this can’t go higher than 6.3.

This is fine at 6.0, even with the APCR pen buff, but I can also see it going to 6.3.

@GoneToTheAether

Coelian: with the same stuff as the other 37s, minimum 7.0 if not as high as 7.7.

Coelian is just a panther with Ostwind II guns and turret rotation speed. I agree that it should go to 7.0.

[Yontzee]

IMO, the US AA line is pretty weak compared to many in-game nations but isn’t the weakest by far. However, new additions to assist the tree would be preferred. There’s several vehicles that could be added to the tree (Bold vehicles are vehicles that have been in USA use):

• SGT. Stout (M-SHORAD)
• M163A2 PIVADS (new ammunition)
• M6 Linebacker
• XM701 GLAADS
• MIM-46 Mauler
• AN/TWQ-1 Avenger
• XM246

Light Vehicles that can fill a limited AA-role:

• LAV-25A2
• M1296 Dragoon
• ACV-30
• V-150D Commando (Oerlikon 204GK)
• M2A4 Bradley
• M2A4E1 Bradley

These lists are not all inclusive.

The issue with US AA is that US-doctrine focuses on emplaced long-range AA/SAM systems and air superiority versus mobile AA platforms.

[Zyranovos]

Totally no other TT’s with this issue, totally not sweden, not at all.

[Pangolin_Fan]

Sweden get’s significantly better SPAA options at all brs than America does, and they get alot more. The only nation that has it as bad as America is Israel, but Gajin’s neglected Israel since day anyways so that’s expected.

[Zyranovos]

have you played sweden SPAA line?

[Pangolin_Fan]

Do you even know what you’re talking about?

[Zyranovos]

Yes…

the USH is a bad R3, the VEAK 40 got stripped of its HE-VT, the Leo-2 mrksmn is an over BR’d Gepard, the 40mm truck and tank suck in the RPM department, and you cant be super accurate at mid-long range, LVKV 9040C is good, dont know about top tier though, low tier is garbage

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Zyranovos

the USH is a bad R3

Just be thankful Sweden’s R3 equivelant is at 5.3 and not 7.7 ffs.

@Zyranovos

the VEAK 40 got stripped of its HE-VT

Oh boohoo. guess who has worse radar, worse gun, and never got HE-VT to begin with whilst being at the same br.

@Zyranovos

the Leo-2 mrksmn is an over BR’d Gepard

Gepard is under BR’d anyways. besides, America doesn’t even get an SPAA for its 8.7 lineup. I would much rather have an 8.7 ItPsV than need to take M163 (7.7) to my 8.7 lineup.

@Zyranovos

the 40mm truck sucks in the RPM department

The Lvtdgb M/40 is at 2.7, and is definetly more useful than an M16.

@Zyranovos

the 40mm tank sucks in the RPM department

The L-62 Anti has better shells, but half the firerate of the M19/M42 and it’s 1.0 lower.
The Lvkv 42 has same the firerate of M19/M42, with better survivability, and better ammo, not only that, its firerate is in one gun, meaning it’s actually consistent instead of moving around between 120 and 240 RPM, unlike the M19/M42, and it’s only 0.3 higher.

Not to mention, Sweden gets ZSU-57 and better toptier SPAA.