Is it feasible to adjust the BR float to ± 0.7？

[_Baum]

@Shadow_CZ

It might not change the numbers but it will severly influence the MM for everything. You are failing to see that. BR is just number, the important thing is what the number represents and what is its tole in the MM, the ±0.7 fundamentaly changes this relation and you are failing to see that.

No I see that. But i see only a positive with that.
Again every negative you brought up does not exist in 0.7 MM it exists in your mind. We can see it right now in the game.
8.0 to 9.0 are unplayable for anything non russian right now.
We could have 100% of the positives and 0% of the negatives of the last BR change if we had simply switched to a 0.7 MM.
Not a single lineup would have lost more than maybe 1 vehicle
Not a single tank increased by 0.3 would have needed to change BR
Not a single tank increased by 0.7 would have increased by more than 0.3
Former 7.3 tanks woudl not now meet 9.0
We would not have 3 T54s and 3Magachs of vastly different capabilities all at 8.0

@Shadow_CZ

Everything will change - for example basically same tanks M4A1 (76) W and M4A3 (76) W will now be unable to meet. That is just one example.

That is not a 0.7 issue. That is a general balance issue. in a 0.7 world these could both get their proper down BR and meet again. Two tanks nolonger meeting is not a contra argument in any way shape or form. There is no “This tank has to meet this tank” only a “This tank should not meet this tank” argument. No tank needs to meet another for any reason outside of “They are of similar enough power”

If the M4A1 and M4A2 76es are of similar enough power in a 0.7 world they will soon meet again. Right now Gajins says they are 100% appart and I say 100% is to far a gap.

@Shadow_CZ

• In you system the 3.3 vehicles stay at 3.3 and can see vehicles from 2.7 to 4.0
• In my system all the 3.3 vehicles move to 4.3 (lineups don´t change) and can see 3.3 (not occupied) so the lowest BR is 3.7 (old 2.7) and highest is 5.3 (old 4.0)

So you will just create gaps and not move vehicles around? Then why create gaps.

Please go ahead and fill your table with the current German, UK and Swedish TechTrees and then in another one place vehicles as you see them in a decompressed state.
In your first picture you will see massive holes with nothingness in your second lineups will break down.

@Shadow_CZ

So tell me what point did I ignore or how the lineups will break. I am waiting.

Again your argument only works if you move everything to a new number but do not use your newly created space for the very reason you created it. You do not use your proposed system for what you proposed it for. If you do not change vehicles around then there is no reason to extend the BR range. 0decompression is happening if you use your system like that.

Congratulations you killed your own System in order to try and show how I am wrong. You proved my system works by destroying your own.

@Shadow_CZ

I gave you one (two actually) the 76 Shermans and the Panthers and you conviniently ignored them both…

I told you what i expected dont pretent I didnt I will even quote it again here

@_Baum

That is not an example the way I wanted it.
I want you to give me one specific vehicle currently in the game which you would rebalance to put it in a better place and I want you to show me how this could only be done in a 1.0 MM and not in a 0.7MM.
Again do so using one specific vehicle currently in the game and be as percise as possible and needed.

Here you go mist convinient ignorance

@Shadow_CZ

That is completly irrelevant and isn´t an advantage of the ±0.7 system since the capabilities of each vehicle is same relative distance regardless of the spread you use. Again please revisit what I wrote and demonstrated above with the table.

How do the capabilities of vehicles remain the same if I go from a -100% to +100% scale to a -66% to +66% scale? The max and min capabilities change drastically if I remove them. In a 0.7 Mm there is not a single time a vehicle with more than 66% difference in capabilities should exist. In a 1.0 system the difference is set to 100%
Yes the relative capabilities from 1.0 to 2.0 and so on remain unchanged. But the real world in match capabilities of tanks you can actually meet shrinks the difference between your vehicle and everything you can meet in a match is much smaller in a 0.7 system than it is in a 1.0 system. This is also why the outside BR scale needs to remain unchanged. a full 1.0 BR jumb should correspond to a 100% increase in capabilities(performance as measured by gajin) but no vehicle should ever need to meet a vehicle exceeding its own performance by 100%

@Shadow_CZ

It actually does the oposit because you have less MM steps to balance the vehicle. Again as explained above. With the steps.

Where are the less steps?
You have not shown that at all.
As I said right now we have 1.0 to 11.7 after the change we have 1.0 to 11.7 where is a step missing. There exists no step inside a match. The BR range does not change during a match you don`t satrt a 7.0 match and after 5 minutes it is suddenly only a 6.7 match and 5 mins alter a 7.7 match.
THERE ARE NO STEPS IN THE MM. There are only steps in the TechTree. The MM only takes vehicles from range x to y and builds a match. It does nothing more.

@Shadow_CZ

BRs doesn´t make TT visually full or empty. It has zero impact on the visual side of the TT. From the MM point of view the sane hole exists regardless of the BR system used. Because the MM in both systems ±0.7 or decompressed ±1.0 is exactly the same.

The MM is not the same. As the MM is ONLY the system used to build a match and nothing more it also has only one purpose and one alone. Right now that is to Take a singular BR for its max and fill in to a given minimum. That is all the MM is and does. Al I want to do is reduce the allowed minimum the MM can choose after it choose the max. So a MM allowing -1 is 100% different from a MM allowing -0.7. Stop extending the powers of the MM beyond what an MM is.

And BRs dont make it more empty? Look at Sweden. Look at old Jp. Look at old Britain. 2 BR`s missing and an entire Rank remains empty. BRs make TT look empty if there is nothing inbetween.
And as we are Why is your Ui superior to mine? In mine we have vehicles at most BRs in yours most BRs are empty. So a new player will see massive jumps in numbers in your system but continuation in mine.

@Shadow_CZ

As I demonstrated numerous times no lineup will cange compared to your ±0.7.

Then you create empty space for nothing? You will not move around any vehicle whatsoever to achive balance?

@Shadow_CZ

You are thinking about BRs as something static and visual. Again the BR is just number which represents MM grid. The ±0.7 MM has fewer balancing steps then the ±1.0

No it has not.
Why can I not put a vehicle anywhere between 1.0 and 11.7 in a 0.7 system but I can do that in a 1.0 system. Explain that to me. If you can not then there is no “different is steps”

@Shadow_CZ

In my system we can do more though:
If we think that it is too weak at this BR we can move it down to 9.0 (unocupied) so now it can face only 8.0 - 10.0 the current 5.7 tanks are at 8.7 so they aren´t affected. Than we can move the strongest and most OP tanks at the 10.0 (old 7.3) vehicles to 10.3 which won´t change their highest BR vehicle which they can see because the 11.3 isn´t ocupied.

And how does this speak against my system? In mine we can literally extend BRs as needed.
Yours is complicated.
causes empty space (making the game look empty is totally what gajin will want)
causes visual breaks in numbering between tanks only us can understand but noone else.

Yours is an adition to extend mine into the longer furture. it is however not feasible right now and once filled up it will 100% face the same issues we face right now. Sthg which mine avoids

@Shadow_CZ

Can you now see how the decompression and ±1.0 is supperior?

No absolutely not.
see above

@Shadow_CZ

No in the ±0.7 the impact of moving the vehicle by 0.3 is exactly the same as in current system because the MM grid stayed the same only the starting power difference is smaller.

so there is a differnece… Man you start at point a and then shoot yourself in the foot.

@Shadow_CZ

If you were to move problematic vehicle in the ±0.7 system you can do so less precisely because you didn´t change the BR grid only the spread. So in the ±0.7 the one BR grid step (0.3) is half of the the MM spread.

This makes no sense.
if I move a vehicle by 0.3 in a 0.7 world it would still nolonger meet the reason for its move so problem solved.
in a 1.0 system there are more possible reason for a move a 6.0 could be Op against 5.0 and 5.3 so it woudl need to go to 6.7. But at 6.7 it is useless against 7.7
in a 0.7 Sytem it would only be Op against 5.3 as it woudl not even meet 5.0. it woudl only need to move to 6.3 and would never meet 7.7 or 7.3 you could therefore even put it up to 6.7 giving 5.7 some more room while still not impacting 7.7.
so in a 0.7 System you have two options instead of one and both are beter than the single option we have in a 1.0 system

That is the problem with 1.0 There are to many variables to consider making everything a bad choice eventually. Having less variables gives you room to think and breath. By adding your BR extensions down the road once the TT fills up you can keep the room while also not suddenly increasing the distance between vehicles. You don`t need to create empty space in an attempt to future proof. You can create free space once needed.

Right now we all agree that in a 1.0 system we need more space then we currently have. In my 0.7 system however we do have just barely enough space to fit everythig we currently have so we would not need to extend BRs to 16 but maybe just 13 to fit everything neetly.

This way the TT looks full but has the same space as your 16BR range 1.0 system.
Again i am pro extending top BR. I am just not pro empty space. A more limited MM Spread of 0.7 keeps lineups intact, allows for more percise balancing, allows for expansion and does not require the sudden implementation of 5 or more BRs which for now mostly remain empty. with 0.7 we can fake a 16BR system without any of the work and we still get all the benefits as long as we add BRs whenever needed.

@Shadow_CZ

The thing is that the 0.7 float insures nothing that is the biggest misconception about the 0.7. It can only theoretically work because current BRs are set up based on certain power difference which the 0.7

That is what we call working with reality.
Reality is that Gajin aims for a 100% performance difference for a full BR.
Your imaginary scenario where that suddenly changes in a 0.7 world makes no sense. We have real world data showing that it works you have your imaginationm showing how gajin could ruin it.

@Shadow_CZ

I can agree with that the current power steps is too much but that doesn´t mean we can´t decide on smaller power step and asign the 1.0 float to it with other benefits.

And all the downsides

Again Pleasse fill your table with our current TT and look at what you created. it is mostly empty space and hughe numerical gaps. I agree your system works. But it will never be implemented unless you solve your empty space problem. Gajin wants full bursting TTs for marketing.
0.7 allows for that while still giving the most important benefits of your System. And the missing ones can be added down the line by adding new BRs whenever needed. No need to create them just in anticipation.

[_Baum]

I think we are at a point where we essentially want the same but are just discussing personal whishes.

0.7 and your extended BR system bring mostly the same

The major differences are:

1. 0.7 needs later BR increases for new vehicles much faster than your extended BR rnage model
2. 0.7 creates less gaps in a TT and will keep lineups even in the furture next to unchanged while your extended BR range runs a higher risk of destroying them in the near future.
3. 0.7 looks a bit off for new players while your extended BR range looks a bit empty the opposide is true for each other
4. 0.7 Wants to generally decrease the in match powergap forever while your extended BR range runs a much higher risk of compressing again in the furture (Albeit in both cases it is Gajin not adjusting the system correctly and bulding a Gajin prove system is impossible because Gajin is staffed by humans and human proving is impossible)
5. Extended BR creates a buffer of BRs for the future while as in 1. 0.7 wants to avoid empty BRs

Did I miss sth?

[Shadow_CZ]

@_Baum

I think we are at a point where we essentially want the same but are just discussing personal whishes.

0.7 and your extended BR system bring mostly the same

1. 0.7 needs later BR increases for new vehicles much faster than your extended BR rnage model
2. 0.7 creates less gaps in a TT and will keep lineups even in the furture next to unchanged while your extended BR range runs a higher risk of destroying them in the near future.
3. 0.7 looks a bit off for new players while your extended BR range looks a bit empty the opposide is true for each other
4. 0.7 Wants to generally decrease the in match powergap forever while your extended BR range runs a much higher risk of compressing again in the furture (Albeit in both cases it is Gajin not adjusting the system correctly and bulding a Gajin prove system is impossible because Gajin is staffed by humans and human proving is impossible)
5. Extended BR creates a buffer of BRs for the future while as in 1. 0.7 wants to avoid empty BRs

Did I miss sth?

That basically what I was trying to say from the start.

I will just few of my thoughs:

1. Fully agree
2. I will say that I don´t think that the lineup breaking is inherently more probable in the decompressed system. The only lineup breaking would happen when there is clear need to readjust the BR further. Which I would say would then happen regardless the approach choosen
3. I agree but I will say that I don´t consider that “emptiness” as a any major issue.
4. I will say this, with ther decompression it is more likely that Gaijin won´t at very least initially wont go all the way. So for example I highly doubt that Gaijin will decompress the lower ranks.
   On the other hand the ±0.7 is IMO less likely to ever happen.
5. Fully agree

[_Baum]

@Shadow_CZ

I will say that I don´t think that the lineup breaking is inherently more probable in the decompressed system. The only lineup breaking would happen when there is clear need to readjust the BR further. Which I would say would then happen regardless the approach choosen

Here I would argue that by limiting the power spread in each match changes in BR will become less likely over time as the Meta would naturally stiffen. Hency why I believe it will both initially create less gaps as well as in the fuuture but those are just guesses.

[七-十三]

this, BR adjustment shift so hard because the performance difference at the 1.0 range has practically translated to a ton of new and effective technologies altogether, if we remove the 1.0 range, what was seen as “inevitable loss” created by 1.0 full uptier will then disappear and stabilises vehicle BR.

[PigtailedSlime]

It really doesn’t need to. They could literally just change the code so that 0.7 is the max range for match making based on the BR of your lineup. Probably just a few lines of code is need or a single number changed. Then, when the full decompression is done months later, they can switch back and implement the new BR system.
For some reason, you seem to think that they would need to readjust the BR of every vehicle in-game if they changed it to a 0.7 BR range when that simply just doesn’t have to happen.

[AlvisWisla]

Which infinitely complicates balancing.
No, not possible.

[PigtailedSlime]

It doesn’t affect balancing at all. It would be temporary until the actual BR system is fixed. Reread my previous comment.

[AlvisWisla]

It’s better to use that time for more analysis rather than a dead-end feature that would ruin the game.

[PigtailedSlime]

The time spent is negligible as it would be easier to implement than changing the horsepower of the engine on a single vehicle and would, for most people, make the game more enjoyable and seem to be on more of a level playing field as everyone else.

[AlvisWisla]

No, it’s not negligible. It’s at least multiple days work which is better spent on actual permanent features that won’t ruin the game & cause this game to be the worst in the industry without enjoyment.

Enjoyment > 0.7 dead game with uber compression & inefficient use of time by devs.

[PigtailedSlime]

I disagree and think the opposite actually. However since neither of us can prove our points, and gaijin will not go either route and instead decompress by moving everything .3-.7 up at a time as they have been doing, continuing to reply to you about it is a pointless waste of time.
Have a great day.

[AlvisWisla]

What do you mean by “either route”?
Last I checked there were not 3 options.
Decompression is happening, which is one of the options, and the best one.
0.7 is trash which is why people mostly oppose it now.

[七-十三]

By people, do you mean yourself?

[AlvisWisla]

The vast majority of WT’s playerbase that has an opinion on this, wants decompression.
Not matchmaking change that’ll cause compression & worse outcomes.

I’ve illustrated the consequences of 0.7, and people saying “Nuh uh.” isn’t helpful when they haven’t thought about all the potential consequences.

Like me bringing up Maus & T26E5, where no one else did.
1.0 matchmaking is more efficient & superior due to 4 positions for tanks different to each other, but effective enough to face one another.

[七-十三]

Bet your whole argument was 0.7 bad.

[AlvisWisla]

Oh I argued my position horribly for sure.
I had a massive skill issue getting my points across.
However, my points were still sound.

It is superior to have 4 deviations from something like KV-1E to M6A1 than it is to have 3 deviations from KV-1E to M6A1.
And if decompression needs to occur, KV-1E goes up & pushes all 4.3 - 11.7 up with it.

[_Baum]

@AlvisWisla

Which infinitely complicates balancing.
No, not possible and worse for players & staff.

A claim which is 100% disproven

@AlvisWisla

t’s better to use that time for more analysis rather than a dead-end feature that would ruin the game.

A claim 100% disproven

@AlvisWisla

Enjoyment > 0.7 dead game with uber compression & inefficient use of time by devs.

0.7 is not compression this is 100% proven in this very threat

@AlvisWisla

0.7 is trash which is why people mostly oppose it now.

You are literally the only WT player I know who opposes 0.7 while claiming it is compression.

@AlvisWisla

The vast majority of WT’s playerbase that has an opinion on this, wants decompression.

Which 0.7 as proven beyond any doubt offers. Hence why not a single person besides you opposes 0.7 while arguing that it causes compression. In fact I made similar points on reddit recently and even there not a single WT player opposed 0.7 as a form of compression- When asking in ingame chat 0.7 finds the exact same kind of agreement as an BR extension.

@AlvisWisla

I’ve illustrated the consequences of 0.7, and people saying “Nuh uh.” isn’t helpful when they haven’t thought about all the potential consequences.

you have illustrated absolutely nothing. YOu have used made up math with 0 points in reality with imagination rather than logic and have repeated the exact same unchanged points now over 15 times. And now you have 16 different arguments all of which disprove every word you say.

@AlvisWisla

1.0 matchmaking is more efficient & superior due to 4 positions for tanks different to each other, but effective enough to face one another.

There are not 4 positions outside of a match outside there are 10.7 right now from 1.0 to 11.7.

The MM does not change while inside a match. You fundamentally fail to understand what decompression is. You fundamentally do not understand balancing. You fundamentally do not understand the BR system and you fundamentaly do not understand game design.
Yet you behave like you are an expert in all of them.
It could be funny if you where trolling but you are to RazerVon to be.

@AlvisWisla

However, my points were still sound.

No. Not at all.
Not a single person agreed with you XD

@AlvisWisla

It is superior to have 4 deviations from something like KV-1E to M6A1 than it is to have 3 deviations from KV-1E to M6A1.

But even in 0.7 there are 4… hell there are any number from 1.0 to 11.7.
I can still put every vehicle at every BR in existance as i have said 13 times now.

YOur imaginary steps won`t be real no matter how often you repeat the point

@AlvisWisla

And if decompression needs to occur, KV-1E goes up & pushes all 4.3 - 11.7 up with it.

The very same can happen in 0.7. It just doe snot need to happen as fast making your entire argument pointless just like I already showed multiple times.

Razer you should just stop and accept that you are wrong.
If not a single person agrees with you, YOU are wrong not the others.
You have brought exactly 3 claims to this discussion over the course of well over 20 posts. Repeating the same claims over and over and over again without any proof for any of them. Just stop it. At this point I consider this nothing but spam

[AlvisWisla]

0.7 does not offer balanced decompression.
When people say they want decompression, they want balance.
0.7 would make hundreds of vehicles OP in an instant without changing BRs.

You even argue for M6A1 to drop BR to stay able to fight KV-1E.

Sorry, but decompression isn’t wrong no matter how many times you claim it is.

[七-十三]

Yeh I don’t think you understand what we’re talking about, like, at all, it took three of us five different kind of explanation but you still didn’t get it somehow, it’s really not a debate anymore, it’s now a contest on who can explain ±.7 MM Bracket to you without you deviating into the tech tree.