If you could, how would you re-balance CAS in Ground Battles?

Spawning CAP can remain the current cost.

Spawning CAS should have its SP scale with its payload as a function of BR.

Ergo - a 500 lbs bomb at 4.0 is gonna be way more devastating than at BR 6.0, so at 4.0 it should cost more. Also 3x 500 lbs is better than 1x 1000 lbs as you can take out more targets.

There’d be a lot of balance considerations to be made, but killing potential should go up.

Also, push the airfields back so it takes ~3 minutes to rearm and return over 90 seconds. This should encourage slower planes with more bombs over fast and small fighters dropping 1 bomb, rearming in 90 seconds and returning.

Even Kuuki agrees that the british SPAA is atrocious from 5.3-8.0 (Bosvark)

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Limiting the number of aircraft in a battle at any one time isn’t about limiting “player choice”, so much as it is an idea to make a ground battle, rather than an air raid. When planes outnumber tanks, especially when it’s happened on both sides, with nobody in the air fighting each other, DOES make for more of a “Ground Battle”. Please tell me what battle, in all of WWII, had planes outnumber tanks in a tactical fight. (I will gleefully wait!)

Just because “realistic mode” doesn’t mean “realistic” in every sense of the word doesn’t mean it could not be made more realistic than it currently is.

Operation Overlord. (1944)

290 tanks vs about 12’000 aircraft were used by the allies to take the beaches of Normandy

(air superiority was profound after D-Day for the allies and aided greatly in their advance across Europe, especially as they captured or constructed FoBs, so id add onto this, tenatively, every single battle in Europe after June 1944, at least for the allies. Though I think the soviets also enjoyed a fairly solid air superiority as well)

Second battle of el Alamein. (1942)

The allies had around 900 aircraft and 547 tanks. the Germans had around 1000 tanks and 750 aircraft (so thats about 1700 aircraft and about 1500 tanks)

Aircraft proved highly effective during most of the North Africa campaign, so I wouldnt be surprised if multiple battles in North Africa involed equal or greater numbers of aircraft compared to tanks.

Battle of Kursk (1943)

At the battle of Kursk, whilst tanks did outnumber aircraft, it wasnt by that much, around 6000 tanks vs around 4000-5000 aircraft.

(also, kinda feels like cheating but not many tanks were used in the Battle of Britain during the Blitz :P )

Operation Overloard used the planes mostly for pre-bombardment and bombardment. I don’t think they were “on call” for troops to summon to blast anything “danger close”.

Second battle of el Alamein used planes for interdiction against troop movements and supply chains, as well as bombardment and pre-bombardment. Not so much for bombing tanks while tanks were fighting tanks.

I’m typing more about planes entering into combat with ground forces that were fighting each other WHILE they’re fighting each other. For that, you need to look more to sloppy battles such as Kursk, but even then I’m thinking they were being used for the same purposes listed above, as opposed to being directed CAS, called in to fight targets that are close to friendly troops.

Now, there weren’t ground combats in the Blitz, aside from rounding up this or that German pilots that hit their parachutes as their planes went down. I don’t remember reading where they ever needed any tanks for that.

Specically for aircraft called in for “CAS”. Then id argue any engagement after D-Day in Western Europe. Aircraft like the P-47, Typhoon and Mosquitto were often called upon to provide close air support. Though communication was of course much harder back then and weapon accuracies were of course far more limited.

For example, I think P-47s proved highly vital providing close air support during the battle of the bulge.

In January 1945, with the Germans retreating desperately from the Bulge, 1st Lt. Robert V. Brulle operated from K-29 airfield in Belgium and flew low-level sorties over the front lines. “You would have an Army guy in a Sherman tank talking to you on the radio,” Brulle remembered in a telephone interview. “When you appeared overhead, he would say something like, ‘We need you to bomb the Germantank hiding behind the little farmhouse with the red roof.’ The problem for us, overhead in our Thunderbolts, was that we could see dozens of farmhouses with red roofs. To pinpoint the enemy, we needed somebody directing our flying who spoke our language.”

So, fighter pilots like Brulle began rotating to the front, joining American ground troops and directing their fellow Thunderbolt flyers. “We would be talking to somebody we knew. We could say something like, ‘Turn right at the S-turn in the river, head up the two-lane road going 15 degrees northeast, and bomb the German tank behind the third farmhouse on the east side of the road.’” That, as it turned out, worked. Source

But I would be reasonably confident to say that aircraft did provide a pivitol role in most major land battles in WW2, perticuraly after the Luftwaffe was greatly diminished in the later years of the war.


If we try to apply a “real world” context to war thunder. Then I would consider the spawn point to be the “convoy” of troops/vehicles coming to the battlefield. So aircraft attacking and intercepting that “convoy” before it could actually enter the main battle to be highly accurate. Something akin to this account during the battle of the Bulge:

When the squadron had swept the road clean of German vehicles, Motzenbecker led his flight up and down the wooded side roads. What began as a chance encounter grew into a marathon air-ground battle that went on and on.

Spotting a platoon of tanks under the foliage, the Hell Hawks dive-bombed the panzers until they disappeared in a boiling cloud of smoke. The next pass revealed several tanks blown completely over, on fire and smoking. But the Germans fought back with a vengeance, streaking the sky with an intense barrage of 20mm flak. One of the 387th’s newer pilots, 2nd Lt. John D. McCarthy, was caught in the web of cannon shells. His aircraft exploded and crashed just yards from the road. The native of Canandaigua, NY, had been with the squadron barely a month.

By the time the daylong fight near Monschau was over, Major Motzenbecker’s squadron, joined by the rest of the Hell Hawks’ 365th Fighter Group, had played havoc with the German column. More than 115 German vehicles and artillery pieces were verified as destroyed, another 65 completely wrecked or damaged, and an unknown number of troops put out of action. The Thunderbolt pilots had lost two of their own to the storm of flak put up by the convoys.

The running battle had blunted the impact of that particular German column, but Hitler’s final counterattack moved forward elsewhere along the front. Unfortunately, bad weather the next day, December 18, kept most P-47s on the ground—but not all. - Source

Now, dont get me wrong. I think GRB needs an SP overhaul and SPAA needs a buff. (read the first comment on this thread for some slightly outdated, but for the most part solid account of my opinions on the CAS situation)

But I do think CAS adds to the historical accuracy and immersion in game. Watching aircraft come in and do this is always satisfying to me:

But I dont consider it “unrealistic” to have aircraft at any BR providing close air support

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Imagine if one day Gaijin decided to create a new tank-only mode, leading to the decline of combined battles with long queue times. That would be the biggest disappointment for this game and would promote the most noob-like gameplay ever.

Killing a game mode just because some players don’t know how to counter CAS, or because they’re too lazy to learn, or because they don’t want to play effectively with planes or SPAAs, or because they dont know how to play like a team; this is incredibly selfish. I hope this new gameplay doesn’t ruin the existing mode, but if it does, I’d prefer to leave the game and I won’t spend another cent again.

It feels like World of Tanks players have discovered War Thunder and want to change it. I don’t see War Thunder players in WoT forums asking for WoT to become like War Thunder. I’m here because this has already happened with the maps; they now resemble WoT maps—no snipe zones, everything is small, and there are no flanking opportunities,It’s ridiculous. And now they want to change the game mode as well.

Gaijin should give extra bonuses for players who kill planes and helicopters in GRB matches. Maybe then these noob-like players will stop crying about it in this forum and actually learn how to play with more than just tanks.

I do think the relatively low reward for actually playing SPAA/CAP is actually a genuine issue. The issue with either, is that you are entirely at the mercy of the enemy team actually spawning in any CAS/CAP themselves and I have spent many a game circling in something like the Sea Harrier FRS1e waiting for trade and none spawning.

I have no idea how you could reward a player in that situation without making it exploitable. But I do think there needs to be some solution. Perhaps the ability to leave the aircraft circling at 20k ft and spawn back into a tank, swapping to the aircraft again when its needed for example.

for SPAAs as well. The rewards can be pretty low, though I think even just giving all SPAA scouting would make a world of difference (I know i quite happily scout in the Stormer HVM whilst waiting for contacts and I find the gameplay rather fun)

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At what B.R?

At what B.R?

After another whiny Spookston video about CAS I suggested to him in a Comment to just get over himself and use a fighter to deal with enemy air to make his gameplay experience more dynamic. I also told him that he doesn’t need to engage in CAS If He does not want to.

Now he is using planes, doing a bit of CAS and his experience has improved.

So If you want to re-balance CAS in GRB, get a plane and a good SPAA.

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„If You want a ground vs ground gameplay, do the opposite”

Great advice!

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Well that’s kind of an issue when there is like 5 “good” SPAA’s and atleast one of them is a premium vehicle in the same tech tree as the Pantsir

Double or dripple the amount of SP’s needed to spawn an air vehicle. Problem solved.
Getting bombarded one minute after the match started because it is way to easy to spawn in a top tier air vehicle is just pretty bad game design.

Especially for top tier vehicles because they are way to powerful.

Starting a GRB match and the groundcombat no even took like one minute and already getting bombed by a helicopter with ATGM’s ist just awful game design.

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Add to this, not only is the reward low but if you fly CAP - you no longer progress your ground tree.

If you want to progress your plane - ARB is a far better place for it with relatively easy 3000-5000 RP games for just 1 kill or an assist (600 score) with relatively high possibility of 9000 RP games for 1200-1500 score.

Spoiler

While if you bring your plane to GRB and kill 3 enemy planes with it - well… you’re likely gonna get 1000-1200 RP towards your plane and in exchange, your tank gets no RP progress at all. Ground RP gain is already pitiful - even 2000 score games lasting for the whole timer end up only paying like 2500-3000 RP at best. Only time I got more than 3000 RP on ground was a 4000 score/14kill game - a whooping 6000. Most games with 4-5 kills give ~2000.

Spoiler

This realization (playing planes makes me getting my desired tank take twice as long as at least half the RP goes into my air tree, and I get less RP in air than I’d doing the same in ARB) kind of made me stop taking out my BF109s as CAP for my tigers.

Perhaps an option to NOT progress air tree research while on the ground might be neat? Although that’d make the CAS problem worse (people fly meta CAS planes to ignore playing “slow and boring WW2 tanks” like ARB suffers with lawmowing base-bombing fighters.) Still, it’d stop making flying CAP an active punishment towards your progress.

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I think you need good CAS if you want players to play CAS.

View wise I cant see S**t with a Wirbel but I can with half track AA and as a result I will play one but no the other.Its pretty simple. Italinan M42 I can see with but the limited ammo mean I rarely bother to waste SP on it.

The other issue with SPAA is actually having an enemy to shoot at.So many CAS fanatics tell us the game cannot function without planes but when you spawn a SPAA and there are no planes you have nothing to shoot at or you hit your single irritating plane and then what? It also depends on ground issues when choosing to bother with SPAA, are you backtracking against overwhelming enemy tanks for example?

With SPAA mid low tier I just want to be able to see,I am supposed to be in an open tub with binoculars yet the view is limited

Yea, the British has some difficult to use SPAAs and a few just not that good. However, it does depend on the player, not just the vehicle alone. I’m still not used to the Bosvark, only played it to try it and spade it. I’m sure the more practice I have on it, the better I’ll get with it and find better playstyles for it to work.

Ammo kills so many SPAA for me. Why limit it? It hanging around in boxes FFs. you are not limited to what it carried historically ,just strap it on.Make the Spawn site a base and give SPAA unlimited ammo on Spawn.

You have to throw people a bone if you want them to play SPAA.

Your probably shooting way to much instead of shooting with small burst. Downed 5 air without rearming in a CAP zone, still have around 200ish rounds left from what I remember on this match. Pretty strong SPAA with high velocity rounds, enjoyed playing it. I don’t use HE rounds for SPAAs, to slow and loses velocity quick unless both AP and HE are similar

Spoiler

But yea, low ammo is an issue when one gets trigger happy or when forced to deal with another tank. Had to unload a good amount of rounds against a T-34 once to survive.

You may be right with Wirbel as I never stick around long enough as I am always hit by a plane coming in at too steep an angle. The other issue SPAA is just a screaming target for planes. Fine of you have cover but sitting out in the open? No thanks.

Also its of limited use in built up maps due to buildings.

Everything screams second rate option with SPAA.

Gaijin need to do more to reel me in.I have spawned a SPAA to counter a sky full of enemy planes and by the time I am in game the planes have all gone? I mean how much time has elapsed?

Not in many SPAA it isn’t. Italian M42 for example is shocking,almost a waste of points