Okay you two, I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.
Runa, Pangolin isn’t saying a Wellington is too hard to fight, he is saying that he can out fly other planes in a Wellington. I’m skeptical of this but that is what he is saying.
Pangolin, Runa thinks you can’t fight a Wellington, and has been arguing based on that premise for several days now.
He literally claimed a corsair can be outturned by a Wellington.
Which means his idea of dogfighting is to fly around in a flat circle because that’s the ONLY way you could ever get out-turned: not using the 3D space as a 3D space since Wellington has like 4 m/s SEP in a straight line while WEPing itself to death… while F4U-4B with weight corrected to F4U-7 (thus overlapping P/W) manages 18 or even 19.
It only outflys new players. It’s turn radius is very sharp, even outturning most fighters, however its roll is extremely easy to take advantage of.
This thread’s focus and my OP have a focus on top tier. It is a bit ambigious, but this was my intent and I have stated in my replies in the past that the focus is on that.
Yes, it is unfair, but it’s part of the realism aspect. Which can be argued for being unnecessary; as primarily tank players should have access to a game-mode that is purely tanks. As I have said myself multiple times in the past, this should be done, but Gaijin won’t. Why? Because frustration is a key part of their business/gameplay model. This should be evident with how they treat gamemodes in general.
A more moderate view, and one that applies to the current situation staying the way it is in terms of gamemodes is the fact that currently CAS can very often act undeterred. Which is why (as I have stated in some other threads in the past and here a few times as well) I feel an AI AA should be added to ground – and I’m not talking about the stupid base AA missiles that break all laws of physics we see in Air RB, I’m talking about the sort where you actually have counter-play especially at top tier.
I frankly don’t know how a AI AA could be added to ground in lower tiers, because Flak is oppressive and would completely destroy the gameplay of dive bombers in the current state of the game. It would require Gaijin to make new gamemodes based on continuous objectives rather than standing in circles; where players would be incentivised to disable AA to allow friendly CAS to spawn to begin with. Either way this is hypotheticals, and these are largely pointless on the forum.
Modeling of SPAA especially at higher BRs is also very bad. Glorified SACLOS missiles shouldn’t be the way we fight planes.
Gaijin fails to create the illusion of team-play by their failure to create proper maps and objectives. As many people have pointed out in the past, currently there is actually no incentive to play SPAA due to rewards being subpar and there actually being no bigger incentive to do so for most players.
Another thing I feel people overlook here is the presence of fighter aircraft, doing their actual job of gaining air-supremacy and suppressing enemy air activity. Much like with SPAA, there is literally 0 incentive to do this as you’re better off ground pounding instead of killing other planes 90% of the time. So no wonder it’s overlooked.
Again, these could be fixed by proper incentives for players to do these things and thus create the illusion of teamwork. But Gaijin doesn’t want an actually functional team game, they want a money printer based on people’s frustration – as is evident with how they have balanced, marketed and generally treated the game in the past few years.
The frustration gangsterism holds in this subject is one by held much of the community. Arguably, I think almost all gamemodes WT currently has are trash besides ground sim and air sim; which only work because you have smaller teams and your skill actually matters. I’ve explained above reasons as to why this is, but I think it’s frankly intentional.
And the premise of:
is true. I can also apply this to Air RB, albeit to a lesser extent and in a different way.
Yeah. As I said, and have said multiple time, focus has always been on top tier but it has shifted towards lower BRs at times. And it indeed is most oppressive at top tier in my opinion mostly due to the lack of proper counterplay when you are actually dealing with a competent player; but the fortunate issue is that most CAS players aren’t competent. I swear 90% of people still don’t know they can just corkscrew to practically dodge all missiles shot at them by SPAA. Which is why I made this thread. Because both sides are lacking in skill, from my own observations of playing the game.
Will SPAA players all suddenly becoming good fix the issue? No. Will it lessen the opression of CAS? Not really, because people still have no incentive to play SPAA nor fighters for that part.
What is the objective of this thread then? To give the community at least something in this pit to fight back with. SPAA is the only ground way to fight back. And if you know how to use it, you really can help your team.
Then why do you get outturned by a Wellington in the French Corsair?
Its weight may be higher than 4B, but 58% 4B has equivalent engine power to weight as the 7 at 30% and I like flying at 78% F4U-4
Also,
I maintain my offer.
I fly with full-real vs your full-real, or I fly realistic with autotrim vs your mousejoy. 109F4, F4U-4, P-51C/P-51, G.55 Sotto 0, Ki-61-I Hei mirror match/duel. Your pick.
You insist people only hate CAS due to skill issues while you have made the above statements and then try and act pretending reality would conform to your attempts gaslighting.
I don’t even own the French corsair
Then why did you even try to counter the REALITY that corsairs make excellent combat aircraft by bringing it up?
Also, corsair flaps are insane.
Because from my experience fighting the F4U-7, it’s just a heavy attack Corsair, not too dissimilar from the AU-1.
This part I cannot contest as I refuse to play in lobbies that are 6.0 top BR due to Ju-288 spam (even as axis. They bloat lobbies without contributing).
However, just because they’re slightly heavier does not make them bad aircraft. A 30% F4U-7 has equivalent power to weight (and wingspan/area to weight) as a 58% F4U-4B.
And it happens that a 78% fuel F4U-4 is quite a powerful and capable fighter still. It’s what I used to achieve my first 6 kill game in 1 spawn in ASB little around a year ago (4.7-5.7 lobby)
This would be terrible. When I spawn my G-LYNX I already have a high chance of a player controlled SPAA staring at the Heli spawn and limited mobility to dodge with. Unless there’s a mountain to hide behind a Helicopter is very vulnerable, the countermeasures do nothing and half the SPAA fire doesnt even trigger the warning system. The last thing helicopters need is to be constantly dodging AI bullshit too.
If you’re going to advocate for this it has to be against planes only.
I have not seen evidence of this, only evidence of a very vocal minority complaining about CAS.
I have seen evidence of top tier having issues with players leaving early.
This is a tired argument. By what right do you claim that skill doesn’t matter in GRB?
As I explained above, maps and gamemodes play a large part in this. While I didn’t directly tackle helos in that response; as it was mostly regarding planes this can be remedied even currently by spawning at the back spawn – I do this myself if I wanna do heli CAS and I know there is enemy SPAA.
How would this problem be solved on the gameplay level? I feel proper reformation of gamemodes could help, something similar to what I said regarding the implementation of low tier SPAA. In real life helicopters are rarely deployed to areas that has confirmed active air defense, as such it should be incentivised for players to destroy such batteries in an actually functional gamemode for the pre-requisite of spawning helicopters to begin with.
True statistics regarding this are hard to comb, but I feel the general zeitgeist of the community as someone who created this thread and has participated in countless discussion regarding the issue is that one of frustration. Is that still a minority? Yes. But do I feel that I can press that as a general opinion of a large part of the community based on my own experiences of playing the game? Yes, partially.
Top tier has issues with this, yes. Which ties into the way Gaijin conducts themselves and markets the game; again – they clearly value money over actual player experience.
That was a loaded statement, I apologize.
Skill does matter, but it has much less weight when the teams are this big. Yes, there are cases when a single player (in a tank) can completely dominate a match, and I have myself enjoyed those sort of matches at times; but you cannot deny that sometimes even doing your all is simply not enough. Be it ticket bleed, or other factors that cause you to lose. I have been there many times.
The part CAS plays in this specific debate is one of key interest, because a single player can change the course of a match at top tier with CAS because of the power it has. The question is should a player be able to do that with CAS? Especially undeterred, which isn’t all too common because the lack of players using SPAA or fighters because of a lack of incentives for doing either.
So, skill does matter. But not in the ways it should, in my eyes. It’s also just very inconsistent in my eyes because how Gaijin fails to create a proper sense of teamwork through failure to establish proper objectives for players to follow.
Either way, that was a bad statement by me, so I apologize.
dont you have a ground teammate to kill enemy SPAA?
of course you dont, but this is your own argument.
no shit, you have barely touched top tier, and presumably dont watch youtube either.
if you havent seen evidence of this, its due to sheer ignorance or a lack of involvement.
The problem with the back spawn is related to the issue of top tier matches going too fast due to players leaving early. Yes, the back spawn can mitigate SPAAs, but it also requires you to fly more to get within effective strike range and that takes time. This is a problem because you do not always have that much time. When I do get in a good position with my heli, all too often the enemy team is almost completely left the match so there are limited targets to fire at. This leaves helis to either spawn close and go for a high risk high reward approach gambling against SPAAs, or to play conservatively and risk getting little to nothing done.
That is much more reasonable than I am used to in this thread. I agree that War Thunder is a mix of frustrating lows and fun gameplay highs, but to a degree all multiplayer games are like that. When you’re competing against other humans your fun comes at the expense of their fun and vice versa.
And I apologize for being snappy, I just expect discourse here to be hostile.
That’s true, I have had those experiences as well at various tiers of gameplay. In fact when there is an event on and I need to grind out score points I tend to play at BRs where I can achieve this level of game play most reliably.
Yes, but isn’t that just a part of life?
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.” - Jean-Luc Picard
I agree that its frustrating when you lose despite your best efforts, but I also accept that as part of life.
CAS does have the potential to be very effective, but I would argue it takes skill to reliably get that level of effectiveness out of it. The average player might get a lucky CAS run here and there, but to do it repeatedly is above average.
Where a lot of pushback comes from is the framing that the issue is CAS itself and not this failure to create proper teamwork and objectives. Evidence of this is the claim that a Tank Only mode would solve all these problems by removing CAS, when in reality it would have plenty of its own problems still inherent with both the nature of the game and reality of multiplayer combat.
You have people claiming players who use CAS are abusive, unfair, unskilled, and the source of all misery, when CAS has always been an intended part of the game.
If there are any left by that point they are busy fighting other tanks while the SPAAs are sitting back in their spawn. If my team is already spawncamping by the time I get in the Heli then the match is over and anything I could shoot would be killed before the hellfire reaches it.
You should learn from Busheedoh’s example on how to conduct yourself in a reasonable manner that warrants understanding and discussion instead of being a dick.
sorry and not to be rude but im fed up with unqualified players polluting the discussion with incorrect arguments which prevent any (already unlikely) progress on a solution.
your counter arguments are anecdotal and baseless, and even though i dont automatically disregard any input from anyone, these arguments are being repeated over and over, even though theyve been disproved and any knowledgeable person would know not to post them again, because posting them multiple times doesnt make them more true.
For what its worth, I do think its bullshit that War Thunder is allowing planes to set the BR for GRB matches a whole uptier above the highest tier tanks available.
The CAS BR doesnt matter as much, it mostly dictates air to air performance and there are powerful CAS planes with a lower BR than maximum
Sure but its still bullshit on principle and it means those tanks never get downtier matches.
is it a bad thing? at least the lower tiers dont deal with the worst CAS, although technically the only reason they dont play against it is because they dont have equal tier CAP which barely matters
Why do you think people leave after 1 death??? And why especially at high tiers?? After last update you can see teammates lineups and mostly who left had other vehicles to spawn (sometimes I’m checking playercards and see for example leo2A6 left after 1 death, but playercard shows he has leo2pso and leo2a7 so he could continue match) i see many people leaving even when they have other vehicles (so blaming low lvl players buying hightier packs isn’t only reason) Want to know your opinion.
I’ll tell you why!
I also always play 1 spawn (if I’m with friends maybe take 2nd) because i don’t see profit to play more because of:
Bad maps
Full uptiers
CAS
If you died first 2-3 minutes in match and spawned again any second you most likely get bombed right in spawn, or get spawncamped because of “genius” map design. So nope, I’m not going to give free kills to CAS. (Spawning AAs isn’t option, it’s defenceless against ground threats + can’t outplay skilled pilot + even if you get air kills it’s 2x-3x lesser reward)
So tell me, what you think is reason people leaving after 1 death?
I think it is. While I am firmly in favor of GRB being mixed vehicle combat, it has always been Ground first. You do need to spawn a tank to get a plane afterall. As such I think the Ground vehicles should set the maximum BR. Any planes that are of a higher BR than the highest BR tanks should not be playable in GRB.
All of the points you made can be boiled down to one word, frustration. Aside from frustration I also think for some people the repair cost economy might be an issue. It’s not an issue I’ve ever had to deal with but I have seen complaints about it before.
However in addition to frustration and economics I think the main reason people leave after 1 death is the lack of incentive not to. As it stands the main deterrent is locking crews, which is a stick approach, and I think we need more carrot. For example they could mitigate 1 death leaving by offering substantial bonuses for staying until the match is over or you are unable to spawn more vehicles. I’m sure there are other options for incentives but that is what came to mind first.
