The only substantial changes to the mode in nearly a decade were the removal of destructible airfields in most maps and a general homogenization of map design, the core PvP TDM meta hasn’t changed in a decade and few if any changes have been positive for attackers/bombers. I’ll be very surprised if they ever change that aspect.
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All of those MBTs are 9.0 except T-55M and some Centurions.
Even then AMX-30B2 is better than all but the T-55M in fighting and that’s without a stabilizer cause it has thermals, LRF, and the best dart at 8.7.
@Ion_Protogen
T-55A doesn’t have “APFSDS”, it has APDS with fins added. It’s worse than Chieftain’s APDS round.
AMD’s APS only functions against ATGMs which were brought up in BR.
LRF and Stabilizer are the only things, and better hull armor works sometimes so yeah, 1.0 difference.
No? T25E5 has a better round than all the other 6.7 heavies while having better armor than most, and being rather quick.
Be patient for new AI in War Thunder. Then we can get rid of this 2010 AI from IL-2.
@sigma_zero
PVP will never change in any game. Zero games in the world have changed how PVP works in over 20 years for a reason.
You can name every single game released after 2010 that’s PVP and they’re all the same gamemodes from PVP games released between 1990 and 2005. Reason: Psychology.
The ONLY thing that has changed is PVE cause there are far more liberties around how you do PVE than PVP.
@Miragen
Game matches last 25 minutes, if you’re not in there for 25 minutes, it’s cause players decided that.
For air, the 7.0-10.0 bracket is even worse for BR compression compared to ground.
Here’s a funny thing I’ve thought of to showcase BR compression. All of these aircraft are 1.0 BRs apart from the surrounding planes.
F-15E > Mig-29 (9-12A) > Mig-23ML > Mig-21MF > Av-8 > Mig-17 > F-80C/Me-262C/J29A/F-84G > Me-262s/F-80A/SK60 at 7.0.
You can bridge the gap between an Me-262 and the F-15E in 7 planes. The same planes that can face Me-262s, also face 20g overload missiles. The same planes that face F-15Es also face Mig-23s.
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It’s totally not because the game spawns you on 2 airfields that are barely 50 km apart in a straight line, on a single airfield for both sides of 16 aircraft.
With objectives all clustered in some 16x16 square in the middle with some minor variations. Oh, and these objectives are irrelevant and can be ignored except for the automated ticket bleed which WILL interrupt your dogfights if they happen after the initial massacre.
Totally not, right @AlvisWisla ?
Gaijin absolutely can’t do anything about the above, right?
Some maps you literally take off, fly barely a minute and are already making contact with the enemy (Mozdok for prop tiers, operation uranus for korean jets). Even side climbing doesn’t change this.
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F-15C is still 13.7, F-15E is 14.0.
It’s wild.
Mig-23ML-Mig-21MF is closer than AV-8-Mig-17. Though Mig-17PF beats AV-8 every time.
The fact Mig-17PF isn’t closer to the AV-8’s BR is cause of 9.3 compression [10.3s].
Game matches last 25 minutes, if you’re not in there for 25 minutes, it’s cause players decided that.
Yeah crazy that players decided to shoot eachother… who could have predicted that.
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Gaijin’s working on a forced random spawn system for air, they’re focusing on air spawns as that’s the only way to really do it fairly without one side guaranteeing a win.
The reason why you can’t let people CHOOSE their spawns in air is cause the side where all 16 players choose the same spawn win purely from choosing the same spawn.
And losing cause your team decided to choose different spawns is not a fun feeling: It happens in ground RB on some maps.
Where’s proof of that? If anything, their recent activity shows they’re working on minimizing time to contact and space to maneuver for advantage.
Air RB needs more spread out AND impactful objectives AND multiple airfields AND maps appropriately sized for the average aircraft of that bracket with respect to acceleration, top speed, turning performance and climb.
We seem to be getting the opposite if anything.
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There is no other round at 6.7 that compares to the APHE fired from the long 88. that gun has the best combination of reload, pen, and post pen for that BR. APCR isn’t good or reliable enough to be considered better.
It still is APFSDS.
What’s wrong with a 1.3 Br difference? Why leave the game in a compressed state?
I challenge you to play a match that lasts a full 25 minutes above 6.0. Do it in air too, not just ground. Matches in high tier end almost always end in 10 minutes or less. They rarely hit 15 minutes, and they almost never hit 20 minutes due to ticket bleed and other factors.
Not in the live server.
False. The Mig-21 has vastly worse performance, missile count, missiles, and flare count when compared to the Mig-23. They should be atleast 1.3 BRs apart from eachother.
Proof? Fields of Normandy. Flanders. Etc.
The side that spawns all one side wins almost every time if not every time, because they’re inherently playing as a team more effectively.
@Ion_Protogen
Now look at 3BM8, the APDS round that 3BM25 is based directly on.
You’ll notice the performance is almost identical cause they’re identical penetrators.
The game isn’t compressed at 7.7 - 8.0 ground for MBTs. You can argue light tanks, but not MBTs.
France 7.7 has been borderline OP for years at this point, and the reason they’re not is cause of how balanced 7.7 is.
Mig-23ML performs worse in dogfights than the Mig-21Bis, which is one of the many reasons why I avoided buying Mig-23ML.
I’d rather face a Mig-23ML in a Mig-21MF [which is the best 10.7 Mig-21 in the game, and better than the F-5C], than face an AV-8 with a non-reheating Mig.
Olifant is at 8.3 with stabilization, dart and LRF. That thing should never go against 7.3s.
Class 3, TAM, T-55AMD, Object 685, Vickers 11, Type 74, Object 122, etc… can also see plethora of unstabilized tanks.
We need a bit more space to fix things around 8.0.
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Never in my hundreds of hours flying ARB or ASB did I see the fields of normany and flanders, unless you count a glimpse from dover strait altitude while flying over calais.
Recent actions taken by gaijin for ARB:
- 25 minute match timer
- Fast ticket bleed (THANKFULLY next update it’s getting removed to only be possible by players)
- Cloud-covered maps that hinder strict boom & zoom aircraft more than turnfighters due to inability to dive onto people on deck
- Small maps at even jet BRs. If I’m flying the F3H or F8U, or even the F86 sabres - I’m expecting maps on scale of afganisthan, big vietnam, sunset city and the like. Not Operation Uranus where by the time I turned around without bleeding speed in the F84 thunderjet, I’ve grazed the edges of the fighting area or flew scarily close to enemy airfield. Even at prop tiers, there’s bollocks like Mozdok where I take off in my F6f-5N wildcat and are immediately within engagement range with enemy fighters preventing me from climbing and building an advantage.
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Out of all the tanks listed, only Olifant has a meta round, and its flaws are being hilariously slow.
The rest are either 9.0 which you rarely see at 8.0, and never see at 7.7, or they’re firing mid projectiles that heavy tanks defeat.
You asked for proof, I provided proof. It’s in another game mode and is a warning to the air RB system that doesn’t even have multi-spawn, and can’t have multi-spawn due to how it’s currently balanced both in rewards and objectives.
If it happens in ground RB it’ll happen far more often in air RB.
Now, this is an air discussion.
The permanent solution is PVE components being added, and we have to be patient with Gaijin as AI related development is never fast.
All we can do is push them to continue developing it [even if they never intend to quit developing the new AI].
There is no temporary quick solution other than learning to be a better defensive flyer…
ARB can have multiple spawn points.
Take 16 players on a 64x64 map.
1.Spawn them evenly spread out across 3 airspawn/airfield locations around 15-20 kilometers side to side. Force this, trying to keep bomber/strike/fighter balanced and keep squads together
2. Put objectives in the middle with similar separation where winning the objective gives a massive ticket advantage forcing players to engage with it and not just ignore it to all fly towards the middle. Just “Air superiority” objectives are sufficient to achieve this.
These two alone break up the 16 planes all fly towards the middle, 16v16 merge where one team loses like 9 players, other loses 2 and then it’s boring clean-up. It turns into 3 5v5 (and 2 +1 somewhere for the 16 players) engagements that will take longer to resolve. Snowballing is still possible, but it becomes much less random
Alternatively, reduce 16v16 to 12v12 and just do 2 airfields per team. This is probably more suitable for jets.
Now, imagine this but on a 164x164 map instead.
Sounds like hell of a good time, no?
This is what ASB EC provides - Multiple runways, multiple objectives that contribute to winning in a significant margin. A 16vs16 on Tunisia in ASB feels far less crowded and cramped because of the objective design creating smaller local engagements rather than the entire 16v16 meeting in the middle.
I mostly play ASB these days, but I do want to be able to enjoy ARB as well as it has marked advantages over ASB (less effort learning plane silhouettes in a new BR bracket to avoid teamkilling. Flying IFF-less F3H demon is a nightmare to learn in ASB due to “is that dorito friend or foe? Normally only enemy has doritos but… Oh, it’s a premium.” IFF-less visual spotting is fine-ish with gunfighters, but missiles it is painful without pre-existing experience and familiarity.)
What I describe above would make flying ARB enjoyable.
ARB right now though, with F8U-2? Climb above enemy team, fire 4 missiles at the premium mig-21(R-13s) napalming bases for easy kills, RTB. Game over by time I take off again. Good SL/effort, bad fun/time.
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Olifant is not fast but being able to see 7.3s is absurd.
9.0s can still see 8.0s, doesn’t matter how often it happens.
You don’t need a meta projectile to defeat ~8.0 heavies.
I agree, but that doesn’t address my complaint with 8.0-9.3 being compressed.
So it should go to 11.0. But it cant, because that’s where the Mig-21bis is, and there should be an 0.7 BR gap between the two.
We need decompression.
We need longer and more tactical matches.
We need a test of RB EC.
Why can’t they test RB EC tho? It’s a test so it doesn’t have to be super polished. They could even use the feedback from that test to impprve a future, permanent RB EC gamemode.
Yes I could fly to the edge of the map and not die, but you won’t get any kills doing that. You’ll either end up doing nothing because the entire enemy team died instantly, or you’ll end up in a 1v5+ because your team collapsed.
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164x164 is just more idle time into the battlefield, and without new AI that’s both easier to spread across maps and have autonomy in matches, that’s exactly how it will be.
Cause right now the best maps are Spain and Afghanistan, yeah there’s A chance they last only 3 minutes, but when they last 12+ minutes it’s one of the best experiences in War Thunder, and yes I’ve had multiple matches in F-15E, Mirage, Su-34, and Mig-29SMT this last month on Spain that has lasted over 12 minutes, and the fights are glorious compared to the large maps with more idle time.
Cause nothing has changed since the last time they tested, and they’d need to test it again with the new AI anyway cause they’re not going to [nor should they] implement air RB EC with the existing AI that can’t even launch missiles onto us.
Air sim is available as an easier game mode than air RB whenever we want an easier time anyway.
True for jets, true for props alike too.
This is kind of what makes flying america (outside say P-51C and similar planes) in ARB prop tier so painful. Planes optimized to dive in, gtfo, reset and make another pass. A good 2-4 minutes per kill unless you got a lucky train you can get a multikill in. Getting greedy and going for more rapid passes has a high chance you bleed too much speed and get caught red handed. In that 2-4 minutes the match is pretty much over.
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Other than fixing matches, shopping lobbies until you find noobs and PvE lobbies (which yes, can allow for easy braindead gameplay), I fail to see how ASB EC is easier than ARB.