I’d say the only reliable F&F heli to do actual damage is the Israeli AH-60, as 16 is enough to take out at least 4/5 tanks, if not more if you’re lucky.
Too bad it doesn’t have a good gun, nor does it get any (good) AA missiles unless you sacrifice a / some spike pylon(s).
Yes, we can cherry pick kamov or good apache rounds.
But hard thruth is, I rather face any KAMOV, or APACHE instead IR missile slinging helo on top tier.
Helos what has to keep line of sight on firing, any aa player , proxyfuse player etc picks em up quite easily, especially when team has enough brains to ping helos…
Or should this Apache be nerfed after round like this against soviets…
If the aim120 could only go 1/4 of its speed, it would be chasing a jet faster than itself. It could be kinematically dodged by flying straight at the right angle to the missile.
Does a tank go 325 m/s minimum? Is it pulling multiple G’s?
No, I didn’t think so, bad comparison because in order to prove your “point,” you’ve made a scenario so unrealistic I didn’t want to even engage with it, but here I am.
My example was fine, didn’t need to be corrected and illustrates the point I’m making perfectly.
An Aim-120 going 1/4 it’s speed can easily be notched and dodged.
You are nitpicking and are missing the point of that example. It is point out how flawed your statement is.
What I was hoping you would take away from that is flight characteristics matters just as much as guidance type. Do you think the Mavericks is better than the KH-38ML? If you think so, then I seriously question your experience in CAS.
Mavericks being launched around 8km at 1km alt will take approximately 30 seconds. Guess how long it take the KH-38ML? 15 seconds. Keep in mind these are against stationary targets with no clutter (dead tank, trees etc)
So no, a tank cannot out go 325m/s and cannot pull multiple Gs but it sure can hide (smoke, trees, etc), distract (having it lock onto a dead tank), be intercepted, or be dead by the time the agm reaches it. Speed matters which is why KH-38ML is better than most FnF agms out there.
that was literally the entire point. It gives a lot of breathing room for someone to react. Now if a spike can had the same engine as the Vikhrs, it’ll be a different story
How are you supposed to predict when you’ve been locked by an AGM? Them missing is most regularly dumb luck in the part of the tank, unless they’re an AA and are paying attention to the air.
But it would be more honest to admit that FnF are inherently more valuable than Vikhrs in a larger game sense. Yes the Vikhr is a superior missile, but the gameplay mechanic of FnF is more valuable than manually guided missiles.
Well that’s a bit rich, pot, I have a kettle you should meet.
Your example was bad, and didn’t show a flaw in anything other than your bad example. It took 2 seconds to show you why.
Consider me out dude, you started comparing fnf’s to each other in a discussion about SACLOS vs FNF. Compare 38mts and 65’s all you want. Make your own thread next time. Maybe you’ll stay on topic.
This is just a waste of time and I won’t contribute any further.
You can’t predict if someone launches a spike initially but it’s something not to be scared of. FnF Agms, have weak post pen damage, it will usually disable your take (breach, engine, etc) but not take it out. It gives you more than enough time to smoke, repair and get into cover (including hiding behind dead tanks).
I do agree FnF has the biggest potential but we haven’t reached that yet. Other than a more powerful agm (speed, pen, damage), datalink needs be expanded upon for it to be extremely deadly.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I meant FnF AGMs as in the Maverick or KH-38
Gotcha, you might be able to survive against a mavericks because but it depends what tank you’re in and where it hits you.
KH-38 on the other hand, it’s pretty much a death sentence
Did you skim through what I said or did you actually read it. I’m talking about the KH-38ML, you know… a SALH agm…
I read it as 38mt. My bad.
I mostly stopped after that mistake.
You don’t have to doubt any CAS abilities. I’m not great at it I have like 2 days in fighter time total I think.
Regardless, yes AGM65D is better and something tells me the kills you have on your SU34 weren’t from you taking the 38MLs if you had a choice between them and MT’s. Same with everyone else and I wonder why that would be.
Additionally, As a CAS plane in contested air space, firing your munition and immediately being able to defend or pursue another target is objectively better than having to keep lasing a single target which you may never get to laze again if you’re engaged in a2a combat. Especially if your goal is to harass gameplay.
Without a doubt the maverick fire and forget is better than a SALH.
Try seeing the big picture, instead of in a vacuum.
Hell no. All the helicopters are pretty bad apart from FNF, and the mi-28NM
Any spaa in the game can reliably counter any helicopter other than Tiger UHT spam.
The one helicopter I can say that should go down in br is the Mi-24D, having falangas and only being marginally better than the Mi-24a
Mi-24D 8.7 → 8.3
Ah, CAS helis discuss, did I miss something? After Gaijin added plenty of 10.3 SPAA I have never played them, these SPAAs is almost make helis especially for Hellfire users can’t play anymore
You’re missing the point again.
He’s saying that, with helicopters, it’s like only being able to pick between weak post-pen Maverick Ds (Spikes / PARS) and KH-38MLs (Vikhirs / Mokopas / AKD-10s) and shooting them on the deck.
Yes, those mavericks are nice but are way less reliable at taking out your intended target and that’s its huge flaw that compensates for the ease of use and safety.
Not against experienced AH Mk.1 / Z-10 / KA-52 / Rooivalk players, but in general I can agree to an extent. (SPAA can simply hide behind cover and have the F&Fs miss).
I can probably show you what I mean in a custom if you’d be willing.
I think most of it comes down to how far away you’re from your helipad.
You can rearm in what, 10 seconds Aced ?
Getting 4-5 kills from a single salvo by just slinging FnFs at people you see is a really good return if you ask me.
Yes.
Yes I agree.
Again, their overall effectiveness is very map dependent, but I agree that you could get more cheesy kills in regular GRB matches in F&Fs (especially the Israeli AH-60) than most other types of helis.
However, in an actual coordinated match, like in SRB, their overall usefulness is considerably worse than the Kamov, AH MK.1, Z-10, and possibly the Rooivalk too.
That’s an apt comparison. I’m always amazed that there are actually people who consider attack helicopters (regardless of whether they have or without FnF missiles) to be particularly dangerous or even useful. I would advise you to pay attention in the next games in the high tier to what performance the helicopter actually delivers, if it is used at all. There are so few situations in which a helicopter can be used to any advantage that it is hardly worth mentioning.
Is the psychological impact of KA50’s suicide attacks in the first minutes of the game so great that you really consider them dangerous?
If the pilot doesn’t make two kills, he is out of the game. It’s that simple. And even in the best case scenario, he has enough SP after the flight to just about start a tank.
I think the discussion is once again falling into black and white thinking. The FnF helicopters can still be used in BR 12 or 12.7. They are also not defenseless against jets. That’s all true.
But sorry. They are no good compared to all alternatives. A tank is more useful, an AA is more useful and a light tank anyway. We don’t have to start with jets.
Helicopters are generally pretty well balanced in terms of what’s on the ground. With advantages for FnF rockets in the tactical area and advantages for guided rockets in terms of effectiveness on the target. It’s all ok.
What makes Helis almost unplayable are the additional 6 jets that fly around in the game. If they are 12.7 jets, you can’t shoot them with the ATAS. And you are easy prey for them.
I can’t emphasise enough how many people do not know the true potential of helicopters in matches, and see others play them with wreckless abandon.
No wonder people say that they are useless.
Sorry, but you completely ignore the capabilties of those helicopters when used properly.
I’ve tested countless of people to see their abilities in CAS with their Gripens, F-15Es, F-16Cs vs my unspaded Pantsir for my Squadron.
A lot of those who I’ve tested don’t know how to CAS and they often think that the Pantsir is impossible to defeat in a 1v1.
I’ve seen numerous Ka-50 and Apache players balloon up and then immediately die to SPAA, and then complain about how useless those vehicles are.
This isn’t the case for those with exceptional experience.
Hence why I believe that it’s necessary to increase the max Air BR for GRB as well, like I have mentioned from the very start of this thread:
Again, other than against somewhat competent jets, good helicopter pilots can decimate ground teams, as well as only finding SPAA somewhat of an inconvenience (at least for non F&Fs).
If you wish, I can show you why in a custom, although I am definitely not as good of a heli pilot as others I know.
agreed
the problem with FnF is that althrough they are good at making yourself safe by… FnF, however the thing itself is the problem. As my experience with PARS, it would be a good thing if it hits, and if it hits, it would be great if it actually do anything
which makes FnF helis into a type of vehicle that very depends on luck, which sadly I have none
it could be very dangerous if the missles are working as intended, but it could also be useless if the missles are having a bit fun the day
