Yes but if you constantly have to drop low below the tree line, you are never going to get a kill with your laser/beam riding hellfire/missile. And even then, fly lower and you can still get killed by a laser guided SPAA like the osa.
Then I can tell you haven’t used aim-9m on helicopters. Again, range is significantly reduced making it a defensive armament. Iglas, Stingers, Mistrals, are much better at being an offensive armament because It’s range and speed is greater. In addition you get 8 of them. When playing against targets that don’t pay attention, 1 or 2 is enough to get kill. When playing against targets that do pay attention, 2-4 will do the job. You can deal a lot more damage with 8 iglas than 2 aim-9ms
It comes down how you play helicopters. If you’re high up in the open then yes, maneuverability will help a lot. But if you hide behind cover, get good vantage points, maneuverability becomes less and less of an importance.
KA-52s are quite durable because a lot of it’s minor components absorb damage that could’ve been done to essential components. Lets not forget, getting hit in the tail is not a killing blow. That’s what makes coax-rotor helicopters really survivable.
The area in which mi-28nm is vulnerable is much greater than a ka52.
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At the lower BRs, like 9.0 - 9.7, the stingers can actually put out some work.
They used to be really crappy, but aren’t so bad with 13g pull and good turn radius.
They’re still dodgable, like you said.
But dodging all of them, especially by multiple people, is no easy feat for a lot of CAS aircraft at 8.7-9.3.
Sure.
I mean, I don’t personally use them on the SU-25T, like you said, they are mostly garbage.
But it can help at times, especially if they don’t realise it coming towards them (which happens more often than you may think).
Ground radar - why not?
Air radar - maybe, but sometimes I’d rather know where the target is than unsuspectingly get shot from behind.
Yes, but dogfight ACM mode allows you to lock onto enemies that are quite above your nose:
That’s what the landing flaps are for.
And you don’t want to lose the speed that you already don’t have enough of in quite a lot of cases.
My bad, I was thinking about the Kh-38s.
It’s still twice as fast as mavericks and PARS, and 3.4 times as fast as Spikes.
Neither do Spikes nor PARs.
I am confused… earlier on you suggested that F&Fs launchers were overpowered and now you simply just need to break LoS and move away.
Sure you get more of them with F&F helicopters, but the Kh-29TEs are much quicker, and have a much bigger splash radius than the spikes or PARS, especially because it’s HE that’s slightly larger than a 500lb american bomb, which has a splash radius of armoured targets of 9m, and kill-on-sight radius (for open top vehicles, which SPAA are plentiful) of 126m.
Sure, it does lack in thermals - but it doesn’t hinder it too much from my experience playing the Su-25T.
Stuff like the Mirage 2000DR-1 has thermals, but a much worse loadout compared to the Su-39, which is 2x AS-30Ls (practically Kh-25ML equiv), a gun pod, some crappy dumb bombs, and 2x Magic 2s (instead of R-73s). You can remove the gun pod for 2x GBU-12s, but it just opens you up to having issues with aircraft more easily. Even then, I believe the Mirage 2000DR-1 should be an 11.7 GRB vehicle.
Yes, it has limited angles compared to other aircraft, but you can work around it.
Overall, the Su-39 / Su-25T can do every job relatively well.
Sure it has some problems, but that’s why it’s at a BR of 11.3 - which is really good for what it can do.
I can sorta see that, but it’s next to defenseless against its same BR counterparts, or even lower.
R-77s are nice, but you can only take two of them if you take 6x KH-29TEs.
Meanwhile the Eurofighter can take 6x Brimstones, 4x Paveway IVs, while still being able to carry 4x Aim-9Ms and 5x Aim-120As.
Or the Rafale, which can take 6x HAMMERS, 1x GBU-24, and still carry 4x MICA-EMs and 2x Magic 2s.
Along with the two’s great flight characteristics.
You barely can win a fight against them, and is only good at CAS and maybe taking out helicopters - nothing else.
It’s like 3/10 against jets, 9/10 (KH-38s do not have GNSS + IOG, unlike Paveway IVs / GBU-48s, and HAMMERs - otherwise it would probably be a 10/10) against ground, and 6/10 against helicopters
Su-39 has to deal with the Mirage 2000DR-1 (which can be a reasonable fight, but more often than not, the Mirage 2000DR-1 takes the cake), the Su-22M4 (which is an easy win), the F-5E FCU (which depends on the skill of the player in the aircraft , and is in fact more of a fair fight than you may think), the Tornado IDS (another easy win), the AJS37 (which is a decently fair fight, but you can win against it if you play right).
I’d say it’s a 6/10 against jets, 9/10 against helicopters, and a 8/10 against ground.
Just imagine this:
but slightly better.
I play it with the T-80UM2, but I understand that the Su-39 / Su-25T may not be a great pick for most players at the moment (although it once was before the decompressed top tier by a slight bit).
Do note that this includes the stock grind that I had to go through with it in ARB.
If you so much as press ‘launch’ a second too late, after a jet passes right past you going roughly mach, the Aim-9M won’t be able to catch up to it.
Unless they are going very slow and are unaware, the only use case for it is in a head-on, which kinda negates its IRCCM capabilities - as most of the time you can just pre-flare it, whether it be on accident or on purpose.
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Also, I’d move the Pantsir to 12.3, move Leopard 2A7s (2A6 / 2A5 can stay at 12.0) / Strv 122s / TKXs / Type 10s to 12.3, move down the Leclerc to 11.7, move down the top tier Ariete to 11.7, move down the Challys to 11.7, and move most (if not) all the 11.3 - 12.7 vehicles up for decompression where the Max BR for jets is 13.3 / 13.7.
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Fighting multiple people at once is never easy.
I guess it depends on what’s actually out there in the air.
You’re right, but it’s still a radar lock that can be broken. Having no HMD really hampers the effectiveness of R-73.
I’ve tried landing flaps as well and it still isn’t all that great.
I was trying to say that maybe a delta wing aircraft without HMD would use R-73s effectively just with that extra AoA.
It’s much different if you target something clueless than targeting something that see you and your missile incoming. Having two FnF missiles at that BR isn’t anything special.
Also, I don’t think AAs in a decent spot should be dying to FnFs of that caliber all that often.
I don’t know, subsonic that rips at 0.9M (which it can easily reach in a shallow dive) with only two R-73s isn’t something I’d use against air. Su-34 has much more chances to kill clueless enemies.
Su-34 is getting hard carried by Kh-38s in GRB, otherwise it would hardly be worth spawning.
It is basically going against fighters (EFT, Rafale) that have some A2G weaponry strapped on them.
It can fight back against strike aircraft, that’s for sure.
But, if someone spawns a fighter you’re in for a rough time.
UM2 is the best option but sadly plenty of people don’t have access to it, so are resorted to uptier their tanks or their Su-39.
If they choose the latter, they’ll now be able to see 12.7 UFOs which will basically violate you.
I’d also move tanks like Click-Bait to 12.0 as they’re clearly on par with 2A5.
Yes - and this is especially the case with AAM + Proxy HE duo, such as with the Imp Chaparral and M247.
It’s one of the harder radars to break and is the same as the MiG-29M’s radar, which is very good for 11.3.
I 100% agree, but dogfight ACM is better than not having anything at all.
And no aircraft at 11.3 has HMD with IRCCM missiles.
The lowest HMD IRCCM aircraft is 11.7, which is the Bison.
The Bison is a MiG-21 platform, and is definitely better suited at taking out other aircraft than the Su-25T / Su-39.
However, it is much worse at taking out helicopters, and has limited amount of CAS capabilities (2x Kab-500Krs), as well as being a higher BR than it.
It’s around a 8/10 against air, 4/10 against helicopters, and 5/10 against ground targets.
Su-25 is no fighter, but trust me when I say you can get F-5Es a run for their money, especially because they cannot use their energy to kill you (since for them to extend away, they must deal with 2x R-73s).
And are as good (maybe a bit better) in a rate fight than the Su-25 (at least from my experience).
Two fast and powerful FnFs are quite uncommon for 11.3.
You don’t need them to directly hit.
I have killed Type 81s behind buildings with the splash damage that is creates.
Only two R-73s at 11.3? That’s pretty good for a strike aircraft with a lot of other ordnance to take care of ground, SPAA, and helicopters.
I’d argue the other way round.
Early radars and RWRs are quite simple and there are an abundant of new players around that BR using F-4S, A-10s, F-5Es, AV-8B (NA)s, and Clickbaits…
As for SU-34?
It has to deal with Eurofighters, Rafales, Gripens, and F-15Es, who are definitely more aware than most 11.3 CAS players.
Hence why the Su-25T / Su-39 is generally better.
It’s way more multi purpose than the Su-34, even if the Su-34 can slightly do ground pounding better at its BR than the Su-25T / Su-39.
Yes.
Back then, you could use the T-80UK, T-72B3, and T-80UK.
Mhm.
Yes, I would agree.
If they only had M829A1, I’d say they’re fine at 11.7, but right now the only difference between them and the Seps are that the Seps are heavier but gets commander optics and gen 2/3 thermals (I can’t be bothered checking which one it is at the moment).
Never said there were any, just stating that R-73 is a dogfighting missile that pulls a lot of efficiency by sitting on planes with HMD.
I’ve used a lot of Su-34 in ARB and that lack of HMD is really evident.
The fact they’re that much faster means they can choose to fight you or not. You’re also more susceptible to ambushes as most of your A2G kit isn’t FnF, so you’ll waste time guiding your munitions in.
Them being fast and powerful is pretty much accounted for by only having two of them. After you spend those, you’re just a glorified 10.0 Su-25.
The problem is that most AAs can and will detect you very early on, and if you launch from ~10km+ it means they’ll have like 15+ seconds to break the lock and move away, which sounds perfectly feasible.
Other tanks ? Yeah sure, they have no idea you’re there or that you’ve launched a missile, so they can only dodge it by sheer luck.
I was talking about it’s A2A performance and yes, a subsonic with 2x R-73s isn’t that great at 11.3.
9Ms suit subsonic aircraft much better in GRB than R-73s.
Not really, Su-39 will hardly be able to sneak up on anyone due to it’s terrible speed and all of it’s A2A weaponry is limited to short range.
Su-34 on the other hand could get <10km R-77 shots or 27ET shots on targets without MAWs.
Even with that round they should definitely be at the same BR as the best CR2s.
I’d say that regardless of the round they should sit at 12.0.
I guess, but I can’t say that they aren’t still useful in most cases.
Sure, but that just means that you can focus on ground pounding / killing helis instead.
Sure, although pre-flaring and the IRCM behind it helps quite a bit with that.
Except the Su-25 struggles to use its laser-guided weapons due to the crappy camera.
The 11.3 Su-25s don’t have that issue, and they also get Vikhirs which help immensly.
In most cases, those types of SPAA (like the Type 81) are busy with other targets or can’t find you because of the lack of search radar, especially if you go low.
Those that do have search radar don’t have missiles that can turn crazy good at 10km, other than maybe the VT1 on the Flarakrad (which is 11.7 anyways).
They aren’t really a threat at close range either.
When people are in the AO, they hardly are going their fastest.
They also turn and dodge other stuff and completely waste their energy.
The Su-25 is not as slow as you think it is.
I’d agree if you are talking about the A-10C, but it’s not that slow.
The R-73s can usually get targets at around 3-4km, as long as you’re going mach 0.9.
Other CAS aircraft at that BR range do not have the luxury of long-range missiles either.
What more do you want from it? R-77s at 11.3?
Except it has to deal with vastly superior aircraft, which also get more AAMs for the same number of Ground ordnance - it’s just not fair.
This is my point - at 11.3, it’s either good fighters and a little bit of CAS (F-4S, J-7E, Bison, J-8F etc) , in the middle (F-5E FCU, Su-25T, Mirage 2000DR-1, Kurnass 2000), or good CAS (JH-7A, AJS37, Tornado IDS). It so happens to do everything above average.
Let’s compare it to the Mirage 2000DR-1 - another great 11.3.
It’s much faster - so it can deal with aircraft more easily, better flight performance as well.
No HMD, but gets Magic 2s.
Generally it’s better against aircraft, although it needs to take a gun pod to deal with them sometimes.
In that case, it only can carry dumb bombs and 2x AS-30Ls (KH-25ML equiv basically).
This means that it’s much worse than the SU-25T / SU-39 - both in number of anti-tank weapons and the variety of them.
AS-30Ls can help against helicopters, but Vikhirs are generally better and is more abundant.
I can’t say the same with the Su-34 since everything it faces are all great multi-roles.
Hence why they’d be both 11.7 if the M1A1 HC / Clickbait had M829A1:
Then they’d be mostly inferior to the Seps - other than having a bit less weight.
Right now they should be the same BR as there is really nothing between them than (like I said), being slightly lighter, having no commander optics, and not having gen 2 thermals.
LMAO OKAY NO. This discussion is over.
You put the Tiger UHT at 12.0!! But raise the KA-52.
We already talked about a bunch of these… biased as hell
Ka-52, 50, and Mi-28NM all stay 12.0
Tiger UHT, and other similar 12.0 FNF systems (you know the ones where you dump all ATGMs, then refill and hide?) go to 12.3
AH-1Z stays 12.0, lack of radar isn’t a good reason to be lower br. It also has the best aam on any helicopter
AH-64s, stay where they are, they are fine).
Z-10 I semi agree with
Is the Rooivalk even that good?
The lower tier helicopters 11.0 and below need rebalancing more than higher tier helicopters.
SA alouettes 8.3 → 8.7 (or anything tiny with 4 starting ATGMs).
~
Italys Huey (7.7) needs to get reduced sp cost, reduced modifications cost, and should be labeled as a “reserve” vehicle
~
all lower tier helicopters get correct internal modules, because it is sickening getting a 12.7 mm round to the tail, just 1, and my helicopter is useless
Repeating yourself with no explanation doesn’t make your statements right
Still need a response from you on the points I made.
best AAM for helicopters is the TY-90.It’s pull and range is the best
Apache A and D need to go down in BR unless they buff hellfires to the point where they are reliable. Again, Hellfires are one of the worst top tier agms in the game.
I see your point. My guess is that the Tiger is the only FnF helicopter that doesn’t have a cannon and has a 1km less range than the spikes. Then again,FnF is the easiest to play, regardless if it’s effective or not.
It’s better than the apaches and viper. The Mokopa, mistral, along with a maw makes it really good.
Geapords and similar spaa can easily take it down.
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They are usable and definitely better than piss poor R-60Ms, but sadly they’re being held up by the platform that carries them.
People can just run away and reset the fight.
Yeah large amount of CMs and IRCM helps with that, but you’re a pretty sizeable target so gunning you down won’t be that hard.
Yeah I was just speaking from an ordnance point of view. 10.0 Su-25 has an awful “targeting pod” that basically force you to use dumb rockets.
It’s always easier when your enemy gets overwhelmed, but in plenty of cases you’ll end up seeing 11.7 AAs that all have a radar.
Are Type 81 and Strela the only 10.3+ AAs without a radar ?
I don’t think many AAs can kill your aircraft, but they can see you and your missile and have ample time to hide. AA that’s aware is probably the last thing you want to spend those two missiles on.
It’s not slow when compared to A-10, but the fact it rips at 0.9M makes it pretty slow for it’s BR relatively speaking.
R-73 shots from 4km are wild. Spending 50% of your useful missiles on that is a gamble to say the least.
Nothing really, I’m just trying to say it’s not really that powerful.
That’s just 12.7 being compressed beyond any measure.
When I thought about it I changed my mind.
Click-Bait has to be above most CR2s even if it had M829A1 only. I mean, what do most CR2s have over CB ? Better thermals while being inferior in most other aspects.
Only SPAAGs capable of countering those 8.3 - 8.7 helicopters with ATGMs are M247 and PGZ.
No explanation to what? I’ve given plenty of explanation and evidence time and time again. Ka-52, 50, and Mi-28NM all stay 12.0 these apart from the mi-28 are flying buses. Their radars don’t truly help them.
Mi-28nm = KA-52 > KA-50.
Mi-28: agile but loses ATA capability in trade of ATGMs.
KA-50 has no thermals and is less than equivalent to the Mi-28Nm, but thanks to bad target acquisition past 4 miles, it can be very difficult to use. (Not to mention spaa and planes can and will typically nuke you).
KA-52 a better Ka-50, that can take a big load of weapons, at the cost of even more mobility. Has a ground search radar, but it mostly picks up dead tanks.
All can carry iglas as their air defense, but iglas are pretty worthless. The 30mm cannon is truly more effective.
All laser guided munitions are usually picked up by LWS and targets them evade your atgm, causing between 2-4 necessary to destroy one tank.
Thanks to the penetration and damage nerf (damage nerf applied to most ATGMs in the game a long time ago now). They preform far worse than they once had.
Their main advantage is speed when it comes to the ATGMs. But this can be countered as if any spaa is semi intelligent, they can curve the AAM toward them and kill them fairly easily, causing any of those helis to have to drop lock and flee, or spam and hope they get the AAM.
Now stop asking me to provide evidence I’ve already provided 4 or 5 times now.
Actually, I do have to agree with @HondaCivici for once here. The Gepard, itpsv, chieftan marksmans, PGZ, amx DCA, and similar have pretty good radar with good shells and good accuracy, leading to them having the advantage as well, as the shell velocity alone is triple that of any atgm. (They also typically have higher range).
Things like the Sidam, and ZSU-24-4 are lagging behind in this, and therefore cannot counter helicopters easily.
The smaller micro helis like the alouette are a pail regardless of what your in as they take tons of damage (even more than the KA-50) before dying.
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True but again, good positioning will make you not rely on mobility. That’s the entire point. People who fly up straight and launch agms will obviously need mobility to survive.
Ground radar is useless but it’s air radar is quite useful. It helps really well with gettting instant locks on planes. This applies to all helis with radars.
You’re severely underestimating Igla’s potential. It’s is really good at the 3-5ish km range. anything close the 30mm gun is deadly. That’s the point with my earlier statement. Hypothetically, if the aim-9m were on the ka52, I would still chose the iglas over the 9m because the 30mm is deadly at the ranges the aim-9m is. The igla extends your AA capabilities.
It ultimately depends where you aim. Roof shot, or center mass shots usually require one agm, if not two. LWS are still a bit uncommon and even then, all it takes is not aiming at them until the last 3-5 seconds.
Any helicopter that requires LOS will never win a fair 1v1 against an spaa which is why you don’t play by those rules. This is where positioning comes really into play.
Because most of the thing you say is said out of inexperience. I’m not shaming you for not playing heli alot. But when you say Aim-9ms are superior than iglas in the context of helis, it questions a lot of other things you’ve said.
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I have a lot of experience in helicopters, not sure where you got the notion I don’t.
You have played more USA helis than me sure.
Please show me some of these god spots you can use without exposing 75% of your KA-52 or AH-64
Aim-9m had the g overload an igla doesnt iglas also often miss and aren’t good over 3km, but decent between 1-3km if your fully rear or front aspect.
Like Honda said, the Tiger UHT is one of the worst F&Fs.
It doesn’t get a chin-mounted gun, so it’s defenseless against air at close range and only 4x ATAS instead of 4x Mistrals.
Mi-28NM, sure.
Ka-50 at 12.0? Are you crazy?
Ka-52 at 12.3.
Again, it’s a better Mi-28NM since it can carry 8x Iglas, has a better damage model, and is more manueverable - at the cost of the 30mm being a bit less convenient to use (but prof Ka-52 players can make do with it).
Again, it isn’t just the lack of radar.
It doesn’t get IRCM like the AH-64A does, it is way less manueverable than the Apaches, and doesn’t get stingers, which are generally better against helicopters than Aim-9Ms due to their longe range.
Aim-9Ms are only good against low speed aircraft and in head-ons, but the effectiveness of the IRCCM in head-ons is much worse, and you can simply just use your gun at that point.
I mean, hello? Have you ever shot Aim-9Ms in your aircraft while going 200km/h against an aircraft flying past you at mach 1.2?
No, they have some of the worst AGMs at top tier, if not, the worst.
Yes, like Honda said, great missiles.
If the AH-64s had Mokopas, I wouldn’t be saying that they need to move down in BR.
Maybe, but I generally don’t see them being too unbalanced.
No.
Other than being small, they cannot defend themselves at all against aircraft (other than spraying some 7.62s), and the missiles themselves are low range and barely do any damage.
The Mi-24D is at 8.7, and gets IRCM, and gets better ATGMs (in every aspect), as well as 4x gunpods that are devastating when they hit.
Sure, I can agree with that.
I can agree with that.
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I wonder who has more experience in helicopters…
(note that I would have more battles in my Z-10, Z-19 and Z-9WA, Mi-28A etc… if they included SRB matches):
I could show you techniques for dealing with SPAA, and useful spots on maps - but you won’t bother.
G overload isn’t everything.
Is an R-60MK always better than an Aim-9J?
And at close range, why bother with an R-60MK (which can be preflared) when you have a decent gun called the M230E-1 with aim leading?
Iglas do miss, you’re correct.
But you get 8 instead of just 2.
Iglas have a very quick spool up time than stuff like TY-90s too.
Yeah.
If it were on a better platform, though, I think you’d see it being a higher BR than 11.3.
As long as you didn’t get into the fight in the first place.
No amount of extending away from it can help you against 2x R-73s coming your way.
I’m sorry but if you’re being gunned down like that then that’s just situational awareness the person needs to work on.
At least how I play it, you don’t just go in a straight line for 20s without going in third person and checking your surroundings from time to time, or manuevering to dodge SPAA fire…
Yup.
Sure, but even then I’m not really that bothered.
You usually know where they are so just come to them from an unexpected area and close to the ground and then pop up and launch some things at them.
It’s not too difficult, especially if they have other things to deal with.
I believe so.
Depends on where they can go and if they’re smart enough to get into a good enough cover (that can stop splash damage too).
Open maps like sands of sinai, or jungle, there’s only little places they can hide - if at all.
Sure, and that’s one of the limitations of the platform, and why it’s at 11.3.
The ordnance it carries (as well as the fact that the platform itself isn’t too bad (cough cough A-10)) makes it pretty good.
Depends on the speed of the enemy aircraft.
I can bet that 90% of the time, an enemy who is going around 800/900km/h, and who is not going 100% away from you, will catch that R-73 from 3/4km without too much of an issue.
It’s not a fighter. It’s can do everything fairly well - so it not being that powerful against fighter aircraft is reasonable.
Agreed.
I can see that.
The main issue that I see (and people I know that play them) is the fact that it has no safe ammo stowage and is quite slow for the lack of armour it has.
The round it gets is also quite abysmal.
The Black Night gets APS, but that’s mostly just a gimmick against other MBTs.
The 2E somewhat solves the mobility issue, but it still doesn’t have a good round nor safe ammo stowage.
These can all go to 11.7 and thave the HC / Clickbait go to the same BR as the Seps with M829A2 in my opinion.
The current 11.7 Challies could go to 11.3 but I don’t think they should be the same BR as the M1A1, Merkava Mk3s, and the Type 90 / TKX (P).
More decompression may solve this (maybe a max BR of 12.7 for ground vehicles)?
That would sorta solve that issue.
One thing I’d like to mention (I’ve said this before).
Most if not all laser-guided AGMs at top tier have IOG.
This means that you can just send it towards the target, lock on, and then turn the laser on last second and it will hit. By then, it’s too late and no amount of deploying smoke will save them.
This is especially useful against 2S38s.