Both aren’t really suited to engage things at 5km+ effectively, but at least Osa will retain speed for much longer as it’s motor burn for a lot longer. Having much better trigger radius helps as well.
Some do sit at spawn, but decent players might try to find some hard cover to conceal them from the direction of the plane spawns.
Also, how do TV bombs/missiles behave when losing the lock, do they explode instantly ?
That’s kinda the point of launching from 10km+. Can’t speak for everyone else, but dodging missiles at those ranges is pretty easy.
There are two types of lock. A point lock and a tracking lock. In most agms, you can acquire an point lock a lot farther than a tracking lock.
a point lock is when the agm locks on to the ground (to put it simply, where ever the crosshair was pointed at, it will go to that position). Meaning when you launch, it will go to that point on the ground. However there’s a cool feature after it’s launched. if an agm reaches tracking lock range and a tank happens to be in the same place where the point lock is, it will switch to a tracking lock and follow that tank.
a tracking lock is self explanatory. If the target smokes itself and the AGM doesn’t have IOG, it will fall out of the sky. If it does have IOG, it will go to the approximate location of where the tank might be. I’m unsure what happens when the agm loses LOS of the target by hiding behind cover. My best guess is that it will switch to a point lock and go the target’s last known position.
AGMs used to explode seconds after it loses lock but they increased the time to 200 seconds or something like that
I’ve used 2S6 and at 8km even strike drones can dodge your missile, let alone a plane. This is why I take those maximum range stats with a big grain of salt.
Yeah I was mostly interested to know what happens in this case.
If it just goes back to point lock, it’s not that hard to break LoS and then just drive away to avoid splash damage.
Every game I have played today has been a full uptier, and in all but 1 game, guess what I have died to in my helicopters? PLANES! Even R-60s weren’t enough to kill the planes
Those type of aircraft get countered very easily by SAMs, like the Imp Chaparral.
They can also proxy the bullpups if they’re good enough, and if you are not careful.
IRCCM missiles, like stingers, can catch people off-guard, especially if you are not careful.
They can be dodged fairly easily, sure but they can become more difficult when you are facing away from the missile, instead of going towards it. They also force you to bleed energy, which means that you may not have enough to dodge the second, especially with delta wing aircraft.
Su-39 at 11.3 can do quite a lot of things very well.
Aircraft? R-60Ms and really good radar (Has TWS, SRC PD, and dogfight ACM mode etc) to find and slave R-73s onto planes during dogfights.
SPAA?
Just shoot two KH-29TEs and they’re most likely not going to intercept them on time, with them going mach 2.2 and having a HE warhead rather than HEAT / SAPHE with mavericks.
Ground targets?
16 vikhirs and 2 KH-25MLs (for easy one-shots).
Integrated camera is not too shabby, especially for 11.3.
Radar has TWS GMTI, so you can find moving targets (even through smoke) and shoot them with vikhirs (slaved onto the radar) too.
Helicopters?
16 vikhirs, which have great range, speed, and has proxy fuse - which can slave onto your radar too.
KH-29TEs as well if they are not aware.
There are definitely other great 11.3 CAS vehicles, like the Mirage 2000DR-1, but it’s generally not as multi-purpose as the Su-39, at least for large quanitites of enemies.
It was the best, but it’s now at 0.3 BR higher than any other SPAA (0.7 for the HQ-17, for example), and is outshined by the Pantsir at its own BR (in most cases).
I could go to replays and find them painstakingly one by one, but I can’t really bother doing that.
I see that you do have around 50 battles with quite a few different countries though, such as in Italy, USA, and Sweden - my bad with this.
Again, not true.
A-4E used to be busted at 8.7, I agree with this.
However, it’s now 9.3 and is just 0.3 BR different with the Ayit, which is significantly better in various aspects.
I indeed have:
Which I agree, and why I have included: SK60B, Scimitar, Ayit, Alpha Jet, F-84G-21, A-4B, Tu-2s, YAK-9K… all from / found in different countries.
Do I need to say more?
Italy technically has the best Eurofighter and Gripen.
Italy also has the G.91Y, which is a pretty good multi-role at 9.0, at least that’s how I saw it when I played it.
Not really sure what you mean by this… as a lot of bombs also have that same direct hit issue.
The only thing I can say here is that the 5.3 Tu-2S’s 1000KG bomb is much better than the S-44 / S-59 version, due to the higher TNT equivalence:
It’s almost like I’ve been saying that aircraft also need decompression, not just helicopters.
And R-60Ms are not good against pilots with flares and some awareness.
More potent (albeit still counterable) AAMs on helis include the Iglas and TY-90s.
Decompressing helicopters would actually make them worse to play, in addition, you have to decompress tanks. Although I do think there should be 12.3 for ground, for the Leo2a7s, strv122b+, and TKX (or whatever is the top Japanese tank is).
Helicopters already meet the br of top tier tanks but not planes. I already hate being constantly dragged into 12.7 or 13.0 while playing purely 12.0 ground.
Also, the AH-1Z and I believe a couple other US helicopters (may be in different trees). Get Aim-9M which is an extremely good aam.
Nobody plays it though, but the potency in my opinion of the AH-1Z is actually higher than the KA-52. It’s tiny, has I think 16x hellfires, and can carry 2 aim-9ms
To add your list I guess
KA-52 stays 12.0
Mi-28NM possibly → 12.3 (is pretty much a better maneuvering KA-52)
AH-1Z → 12.3
Tiger UHT → 12.3
Israel black hawk with FnF → 12.3
Pretty much any fire and forget 12.0, should be 12.3
Maybe it’s my luck, but I’ve landed a bunch of those 1000kg bombs near all sorts of things, Sherman’s, panthers, Somuas, etc. and I mean like at worst a couple feet away. I get a “hit” so I’ve found the bomb worthless.
You gotta meet my buddy, in his LAV-AD he hits some of the craziest shots with the stingers I swear.
I also agree, the R-60ms and iglas aren’t all that good on a helicopter platform. They both have extreme trade offs. Do you take the igla that is harder to flare, or an R-60M with a bigger G over load. (Not that you have a choice to pick and choose, but you get what I mean).
KA-50 and the Su-39 both suffer in that regard. Not great lineups, and they have to expose themselves to find a target for longer due to lack of thermal imaging. (Funnily enough there is a thermal pod for the Su-39, and the KA-50 in game I do believe is the Gen1 thermal equipped one). But oh well
At 11.3 in GRB R-60Ms don’t have tradeoffs, they’re straight garbage.
AIM-9L feels like an IRCCM missile in comparison and it’s range is also much better.
For the sake of argument lets assume all helicopters get it’s detailed modules.
The Mi-28NM and KA52 both have it’s ups and downs. You trade maneuverability and a turret for a more durable and versatile one.
The KA-52 has 8 Iglas, 12 vikhrs and 10 S-130F rockets.It is a very deadly multi-purpose machine
This usually applies to helicopters with aam that are usually mounted on planes. They are only effective in that 2-3ish km and it applies to planes that are getting closer to you, not moving away. Having stingers is more effective because it can accelerate and maintain it’s speed for much longer. Aim-9m and missiles similar to it, are usually used for a defensive role.
I have played the AH-1Z a lot and I can tell you it’s no where near as potent as you think it is. It is not maneuverable, it’s got an awful cannon, and the hellfires (and other SALH) are one of the worst performing agms in the game.
been playing helicopters and spaa and I can say helicopter are ass at top tier. Pantsir and other SPAAs locking on as soon as you take off, and shooting you down before you even get beyond the first tree line or in position. Only decent/good helicopters are the ones like the French tiger with fire and forget missiles otherwise they are kinda ass.
If you fly low enough to the ground their proxy fuse won’t activate.
Brother you just lost the argument when you say the igla is better than an aim-9m, a smokeless aam with 35 g over load, vs an igla with 13.8 g or so overload and a smoke trail…
Mi-28 is harder to hit, this is more survivable. KA-52 gets touched an it falls apart (contrary to irl). But you can’t use a weapons system if you cannot get close enough to engage it.
Depends on which ones that are getting moved around.
The US / French / Japanese / Israeli Apache no longer being the same BR as the Ka-52 / Good F&Fs (like the French, Italian, and Israeli ones) is a good thing for them.
KA-52 would go to 12.3 - no doubt.
Mi-28NM would stay 12.0 (worse survivability, and cannot carry Iglas (without sacrificing Vikhirs).
German Tiger would stay at 12.0.
US / French / Japanese / Israeli top tier Apache go to 11.7, and the YAH-64 goes to 11.0.
The AH-1Z goes up from 11.3 (back then) to 11.7 instead of going straight up to 12.0 (for some reason)?
Stationary Aim-9Ms have an effective range of 3km, which is not good at all.
Trades IRCM / Radar and Stingers for 2x Aim-9Ms with HMD.
The MH-60L stays at 11.3.
The AH Mk.1 goes to 12.3.
The Z-10 goes to 12.0.
The better F&Fs (as I previously mentioned) all go to 12.3.
Rooivalk goes to 12.0.
Yes but if you constantly have to drop low below the tree line, you are never going to get a kill with your laser/beam riding hellfire/missile. And even then, fly lower and you can still get killed by a laser guided SPAA like the osa.
Then I can tell you haven’t used aim-9m on helicopters. Again, range is significantly reduced making it a defensive armament. Iglas, Stingers, Mistrals, are much better at being an offensive armament because It’s range and speed is greater. In addition you get 8 of them. When playing against targets that don’t pay attention, 1 or 2 is enough to get kill. When playing against targets that do pay attention, 2-4 will do the job. You can deal a lot more damage with 8 iglas than 2 aim-9ms
It comes down how you play helicopters. If you’re high up in the open then yes, maneuverability will help a lot. But if you hide behind cover, get good vantage points, maneuverability becomes less and less of an importance.
KA-52s are quite durable because a lot of it’s minor components absorb damage that could’ve been done to essential components. Lets not forget, getting hit in the tail is not a killing blow. That’s what makes coax-rotor helicopters really survivable.
The area in which mi-28nm is vulnerable is much greater than a ka52.
At the lower BRs, like 9.0 - 9.7, the stingers can actually put out some work.
They used to be really crappy, but aren’t so bad with 13g pull and good turn radius.
They’re still dodgable, like you said.
But dodging all of them, especially by multiple people, is no easy feat for a lot of CAS aircraft at 8.7-9.3.
Sure.
I mean, I don’t personally use them on the SU-25T, like you said, they are mostly garbage.
But it can help at times, especially if they don’t realise it coming towards them (which happens more often than you may think).
Ground radar - why not?
Air radar - maybe, but sometimes I’d rather know where the target is than unsuspectingly get shot from behind.
Yes, but dogfight ACM mode allows you to lock onto enemies that are quite above your nose:
That’s what the landing flaps are for.
And you don’t want to lose the speed that you already don’t have enough of in quite a lot of cases.
My bad, I was thinking about the Kh-38s.
It’s still twice as fast as mavericks and PARS, and 3.4 times as fast as Spikes.
Neither do Spikes nor PARs.
I am confused… earlier on you suggested that F&Fs launchers were overpowered and now you simply just need to break LoS and move away.
Sure you get more of them with F&F helicopters, but the Kh-29TEs are much quicker, and have a much bigger splash radius than the spikes or PARS, especially because it’s HE that’s slightly larger than a 500lb american bomb, which has a splash radius of armoured targets of 9m, and kill-on-sight radius (for open top vehicles, which SPAA are plentiful) of 126m.
Sure, it does lack in thermals - but it doesn’t hinder it too much from my experience playing the Su-25T.
Stuff like the Mirage 2000DR-1 has thermals, but a much worse loadout compared to the Su-39, which is 2x AS-30Ls (practically Kh-25ML equiv), a gun pod, some crappy dumb bombs, and 2x Magic 2s (instead of R-73s). You can remove the gun pod for 2x GBU-12s, but it just opens you up to having issues with aircraft more easily. Even then, I believe the Mirage 2000DR-1 should be an 11.7 GRB vehicle.
Yes, it has limited angles compared to other aircraft, but you can work around it.
Overall, the Su-39 / Su-25T can do every job relatively well.
Sure it has some problems, but that’s why it’s at a BR of 11.3 - which is really good for what it can do.
I can sorta see that, but it’s next to defenseless against its same BR counterparts, or even lower.
R-77s are nice, but you can only take two of them if you take 6x KH-29TEs.
Meanwhile the Eurofighter can take 6x Brimstones, 4x Paveway IVs, while still being able to carry 4x Aim-9Ms and 5x Aim-120As.
Or the Rafale, which can take 6x HAMMERS, 1x GBU-24, and still carry 4x MICA-EMs and 2x Magic 2s.
Along with the two’s great flight characteristics.
You barely can win a fight against them, and is only good at CAS and maybe taking out helicopters - nothing else.
It’s like 3/10 against jets, 9/10 (KH-38s do not have GNSS + IOG, unlike Paveway IVs / GBU-48s, and HAMMERs - otherwise it would probably be a 10/10) against ground, and 6/10 against helicopters
Su-39 has to deal with the Mirage 2000DR-1 (which can be a reasonable fight, but more often than not, the Mirage 2000DR-1 takes the cake), the Su-22M4 (which is an easy win), the F-5E FCU (which depends on the skill of the player in the aircraft , and is in fact more of a fair fight than you may think), the Tornado IDS (another easy win), the AJS37 (which is a decently fair fight, but you can win against it if you play right).
I’d say it’s a 6/10 against jets, 9/10 against helicopters, and a 8/10 against ground.
Just imagine this:
but slightly better.
I play it with the T-80UM2, but I understand that the Su-39 / Su-25T may not be a great pick for most players at the moment (although it once was before the decompressed top tier by a slight bit).
