Helicopters are unfairly nerfed

[rainy2000]

@Славянский_Прострел

last 2 kamovs are one of the best ways to reliably destroy an SPAA, you just need skill.

Yup.

@Славянский_Прострел

are you sure? a smart player would just be paranoid about enemy helicopter and will employ the radar and optics. you can dodge f&fs, the main problem is not knowing when you’re attacked. anyway, if you stay 9km away from the battlefield, you’re not being efficient at all. 2 kills per life kind of efficient.

Well, you don’t have to be 9km away from the battlefield. The f&f helicopter can only lob their missiles at around 7km. Not only that, unless they are on your side of the map, they will also have to be somewhat far away from the battlefield (so that they don’t get killed by your SPAA / to try be as effective as possible).
This means that they only really can shoot you if you’re around 2km/3km away from the battlefield, assuming you are on your side of it, and the F&F helicopter is on theirs.

[Славянский_Прострел]

implying they’re nowhere close to the ground and are out of vikhrs? i usually send a few (depends on the spaa im attacking) and descend to the ground, where either the trees protect me or the proxy disables.

[Славянский_Прострел]

@rainy2000

Even with the SPAA having faster missiles, the Kamov’s vikhirs are already 4km out and is now just 5km away before hitting the SPAA, for example.

you have to keep in mind that they do slow down and drastically lose mobility after about 5/6km though

[rainy2000]

They still keep their momentum enough to out-range most SPAAs. And this happens with the SPAA’s missiles as well, although probably to a lesser degree.

[MotorolaCRO]

@rainy2000

Things like Gepards also tend to be able to take care of them, or at least throw off their aim.

They won’t throw your aim as you have sight stabilization.
Gepards can only harm very bad pilots from 3km out.

@rainy2000

Yes, IR missile SPAA tend to struggle with helicopters, and that’s simply just a hard counter.

Them not being able to be countered from the ground is the problem.

@rainy2000

Top Kamov players often can overwhelm the SPAAs as long as they know where they are. The SPAAs always have to react to them, and can never strike first. They must predict when they will pop up if they want to hit first.

I think radars exist just for that reason.

@rainy2000

Even with the SPAA having faster missiles, the Kamov’s vikhirs are already 4km out and is now just 5km away before hitting the SPAA, for example.

All of this implies that AA isn’t hidden and the whole map is surrounded by hills.

[Славянский_Прострел]

oh sure, but one more thing… where do you meet the so called top kamov players? sounds like a legend to me. their count must be in single digits, after so many battles on 3 servers as ussr, i’ve never met one

edit: typo

[Славянский_Прострел]

@MotorolaCRO

All of this implies that AA isn’t hidden

as it should. AA players that know how to hide or go hull down are so rare, they don’t even appear in my dreams

[MotorolaCRO]

We’re talking best vs best.

[rainy2000]

@MotorolaCRO

They won’t throw your aim as you have sight stabilization.

Not in the way I meant.
I meant that you still would have to dodge their barrage of 30mm, which can throw off you aim.

@MotorolaCRO

Gepards can only harm very bad pilots from 3km out.

Sure, but it doesn’t mean that they cannot hit them.
Even the best pilots can succumb to the sheer mass of lead coming their way.

@MotorolaCRO

Them not being able to be countered from the ground is the problem.

Sure, I can understand that. Unfortunately it shouldn’t really go any higher, nor should the SPAA get any better at that BR.
Heli-specific SPAA, like the Roland 1 and Lvrbv 701, can deal with them fairly well, at least from what I can remember.

@MotorolaCRO

I think radars exist just for that reason.

Problem with that is that you can’t use radar to find enemies behind obstacles, like hills / mountains.

@MotorolaCRO

All of this implies that AA isn’t hidden

SPAA can often be found via radar ping, MTI, or friendly drones. They also are found quite commonly in spawns. And if it is hidden, the Kamov can just attack the tanks instead and wait for MAW to alert them of any missile launches by the SPAA. You cannot kill the Kamov in that case.

@MotorolaCRO

the whole map is surrounded by hills.

Sure, although you don’t strictly need hills for this to work (it’s much more difficult, though). Using trees or any cover (given enough range), you can pre-fire Vikhirs towards the SPAA and then peak over the last obstacle where the SPAA is found.

This isn’t just theory, this works in practice and is utilized by many top players.

[rainy2000]

@Славянский_Прострел

oh sure, but one more thing… where do you meet the so called top kamov players? sounds like a legend to me. their count must be in single digits, after so many battles on 3 servers as ussr, i’ve never met one

Most players in this game are casual - and thus you can rarely find them.
If you play squadron battles, you’ll see many, especially against top squadrons, like AVR.

[Славянский_Прострел]

in that case the kamov parries every missile that gets sent against him and “bashes multiple heat warheads into the spaa”. or just forces the spaa to retreat into cover, and the process repeats after they reload or get third party’d

[rainy2000]

Once the Kamov forces the SPAA to take cover, it’s over for it.
The Kamov can keep spamming missiles until the SPAA gets killed by splash damage, have their cover gets destroyed, or have their cover stop working (like a simple rock after the helicopter balloons to higher altitudes).

[Славянский_Прострел]

@rainy2000

SPAA can often be found via radar ping, MTI, or friendly drones.

and the hidden method: scout rocket xD

[Славянский_Прострел]

not on maps like sweden, and most spaa gets tanky at top tier so splash isn’t that reliable. also the radar tanking tandem heat incident

[rainy2000]

Some maps it definitely becomes less effective, like Sweden, but so does it hamper most CAS - even the SPAA itself sometimes.

[MotorolaCRO]

@rainy2000

I meant that you still would have to dodge their barrage of 30mm, which can throw off you aim.

Dodging those is just A-D spam, it’s so basic that isn’t not even worth mentioning.

@rainy2000

Even the best pilots can succumb to the sheer mass of lead coming their way.

Their guns will overheat after some time and most don’t have thousands of rounds to throw just to suppress a single helicopter.

@rainy2000

Heli-specific SPAA, like the Roland 1 and Lvrbv 701, can deal with them fairly well, at least from what I can remember.

They can, but those are found only in 20% of nations.

@rainy2000

Problem with that is that you can’t use radar to find enemies behind obstacles, like hills / mountains.

Fair, but still gives you ample time to hide.

@rainy2000

SPAA can often be found via radar ping, MTI, or friendly drones.

Getting a radar ping means they have your position as well.
Friendly drones can also look for helicopters.

@rainy2000

You cannot kill the Kamov in that case.

Not a single helicopter played correctly with MAWs can be killed, their efficiency can be neutered in some cases.

@rainy2000

The Kamov can keep spamming missiles until the SPAA gets killed by splash damage

That’s the catch.
FnF helis can just ignore AAs as they barely even affect their efficiency.

[rainy2000]

@MotorolaCRO

Dodging those is just A-D spam, it’s so basic that isn’t not even worth mentioning.

Again, that can get you less focused on hitting the vehicle (especially if they frantically move around) and more on making sure you don’t move into one of their bursts. They can also just hide behind cover, too.

@MotorolaCRO

Their guns will overheat after some time and most don’t have thousands of rounds to throw just to suppress a single helicopter.

Yeah their guns can overheat. However, now all SPAA have twice as much ammo.

@MotorolaCRO

They can, but those are found only in 20% of nations.

Maybe Gaijin could add more, but I am not sure what they could add.

@MotorolaCRO

Fair, but still gives you ample time to hide.

Hiding means you are less likely to be able to help your team against them.

@MotorolaCRO

Getting a radar ping means they have your position as well.

Only if you peak over and allow yourself to have that happen.

@MotorolaCRO

Not a single helicopter played correctly with MAWs can be killed, their efficiency can be neutered in some cases.

Yes, that is true. However, the Kamovs and F&Fs in particular can kill targets more easily due to the nature of their weapons.

@MotorolaCRO

FnF helis can just ignore AAs as they barely even affect their efficiency.

Sure, but that’s the only thing they can really do well, especially the ones with only 8 missiles (unlike the Israeli AH-60). The SPAA can also intercept them if needed, or tell ground to smoke up or have them get into cover (even accidentally). F&F missiles also rarely do any reliable damage, so you end up having to shoot a couple or even three against one single enemy.

@Славянский_Прострел

oh sure, but one more thing… where do you meet the so called top kamov players? sounds like a legend to me. their count must be in single digits, after so many battles on 3 servers as ussr, i’ve never met one

Here’s some great examples of what I mean:

@MotorolaCRO

[MotorolaCRO]

@rainy2000

Again, that can get you less focused on hitting the vehicle (especially if they frantically move around) and more on making sure you don’t move into one of their bursts. They can also just hide behind cover, too.

You move based on their bursts.
They can hide behind cover, but focusing them at all isn’t even necessary.

@rainy2000

Yeah their guns can overheat. However, now all SPAA have twice as much ammo.

That’s true but reloading takes a long while. You also have to leave some for personal protection against tanks.

@rainy2000

Maybe Gaijin could add more, but I am not sure what they could add.

Yeah I’m also not well versed in that field as well.

@rainy2000

Hiding means you are less likely to be able to help your team against them.

Drawing fire on yourself and wasting their missiles should count as some help, as they won’t be able to engage others when they’re focusing on you.

@rainy2000

Only if you peak over and allow yourself to have that happen.

Yeah that’s why I said RWR pings work for both sides.

@rainy2000

Yes, that is true. However, the Kamovs and F&Fs in particular can kill targets more easily due to the nature of their weapons.

Agreed, helicopters with Hellfires are bottom of the barrel.

@rainy2000

The SPAA can also intercept them if needed, or tell ground to smoke up or have them get into cover (even accidentally).

Most AAs would need to spend 50% of their ammo to intercept a single volley of FnF, where helicopters are much easier and faster to reload.

@rainy2000

F&F missiles also rarely do any reliable damage, so you end up having to shoot a couple or even three against one single enemy.

I think it was yesterday that I watched a Spike related video and most (if not all) hits did substantial damage or OHK’d.
They can be funky though.

@rainy2000

Here’s some great examples of what I mean:

I got an aneurism watching those shaky replays lol.

[rainy2000]

@MotorolaCRO

You move based on their bursts.
They can hide behind cover, but focusing them at all isn’t even necessary.

rainy2000:

Yeah, I guess so.

@MotorolaCRO

That’s true but reloading takes a long while. You also have to leave some for personal protection against tanks.

Yeah reloading can take a bit, although it’s definitely workable.

I don’t think you need much ammo to deal with tanks (let’s say around 150).
You shouldn’t really be dealing with tanks in the first place (unless you are asking for it by going into the front lines), as it’s up to your team to help you help them against their air.

@MotorolaCRO

Drawing fire on yourself and wasting their missiles should count as some help, as they won’t be able to engage others when they’re focusing on you.

Most of the time, you will not be able to intercept missiles that aren’t coming directly towards you(especially missiles like Vikhirs, which go 600m/s).
Wasting your own missiles for them also means that they are at an advantage, as they can simply rearm on their helipad whereas you can only rearm one more time (with the ammo crate). The only exception to this are in maps where your side has a capture point.
SPAAs with only 8 missiles for their ready-rack also means that you cannot afford to miss a single missile slung from a F&F heli (apart from the Israeli AH-60), and it also means that you cannot intercept every missile from the Kamov (which has 12 in total).

@MotorolaCRO

Yeah that’s why I said RWR pings work for both sides.

RWR pings for helicopters are generally more useful than RWR pings for the SPAA.
It’s much easier to change position with a helicopter than an SPAA, and the SPAA may not even bother changing positions at all - especially if there’s not many places elsewhere to go.

@MotorolaCRO

Most AAs would need to spend 50% of their ammo to intercept a single volley of FnF, where helicopters are much easier and faster to reload.

This is true.

@MotorolaCRO

I think it was yesterday that I watched a Spike related video and most (if not all) hits did substantial damage or OHK’d.
They can be funky though.

Maybe. I do remember my friends still complain about them being unreliable, but that may have changed considering Gaijin did change some aspects of them a little while back.

@MotorolaCRO

I got an aneurism watching those shaky replays lol.

Hah.
Though, I do think you understand what I mean?
Kamovs don’t really suffer against SPAA, at least not to the degree of laser-guided AGM helicopters, and even F&Fs.
Kamovs can guide the vikhirs in behind cover (so that the SPAA cannot see them) until last second (so that they hit). Example of this is especially the 2nd video I posted.
They tend to be much more oppressive than F&Fs.
The F&F helicopters would first have had to expose themselves (whether it be their entire helicopter or their camera), and then shoot their missiles one by one before going back down. Sure, you may not be able to get killed by doing that, but you are also having to rely purely on the enemy to not get into cover, or smoke up, or intercept the extremely slow PARS / Spikes (which go 309 m/s and 180m/s respectively) before they reach their target.

Here’s an example:
At 7km (assuming the Vikhir, Spike, and PARS all go their maximum speed from start to finish), the Vikhir would reach their target in 11.7s (excluding the fact that the helicopter (and sometimes even the missiles) will only be seen until much later on (when there’s only ~4s left in some cases like the second example video)), while the Spike and PARS would reach their target in 38.9s, and 22.7s respectively.

The only other helicopter that is nearly as good (if not better) at taking out SPAA is the British Apache, which can use Starstreaks from up to 7km away.
It takes them around 6.2s to reach that target, but it only gets 4 and the damage against SPAA are quite unreliable.
The British Apache also only gets hellfires, which generally are much worse than Vikhirs at doing anything, and you have agreed with me that they are worse here:

@MotorolaCRO

Agreed, helicopters with Hellfires are bottom of the barrel.

[MotorolaCRO]

@rainy2000

Yeah reloading can take a bit, although it’s definitely workable.

I don’t think you need much ammo to deal with tanks (let’s say around 150).
You shouldn’t really be dealing with tanks in the first place (unless you are asking for it by going into the front lines), as it’s up to your team to help you help them against their air.

Ammo boxes are indeed nice addition, but they make some players go nuts on their ammo consumption as it gives them false sense of “security” they’re gonna have enough.

AAs going after tanks is a really complicated topic, as you can spawn the vehicle and get absolutely no air contacts so you’ll either die of boredom waiting for something or try to do AT plays. Enemy tanks can also push your spot if you aren’t 24/7 glued to spawn.

@rainy2000

Most of the time, you will not be able to intercept missiles that aren’t coming directly towards you(especially missiles like Vikhirs, which go 600m/s).

I don’t even think of intercepting the missiles, just the fact Kamov is firing on you should count as some help to your team, at least in my opinion.

@rainy2000

Wasting your own missiles for them also means that they are at an advantage, as they can simply rearm on their helipad whereas you can only rearm one more time (with the ammo crate). The only exception to this are in maps where your side has a capture point.

That’s one of the reasons I think helicopters are too strong.
They are relatively close to their helipad, can reload infinite times and can even do the reload process in 10 seconds with Ace crew.

@rainy2000

It’s much easier to change position with a helicopter than an SPAA, and the SPAA may not even bother changing positions at all - especially if there’s not many places elsewhere to go.

Agreed, although on some maps helicopter movement can be also pretty limited.
Small ground maps also play a role in all of this.

@rainy2000

Maybe. I do remember my friends still complain about them being unreliable, but that may have changed considering Gaijin did change some aspects of them a little while back.

He said (JustinPlays) that he noticed Spikes worked better when you’re playing outside peak-hours, so their performance might be related to server load. I think this theory is worth investigating if someone’s has the time to do it.

@rainy2000

Though, I do think you understand what I mean?

Yeah, I was just laughing at how bad replays can look.

@rainy2000

Sure, you may not be able to get killed by doing that, but you are also having to rely purely on the enemy to not get into cover, or smoke up

Blindly guiding Vikhrs until there’s like 3-4 seconds left before impact will lower your efficiency as you don’t have much time to decide who you’re end up shooting.

@rainy2000

The British Apache also only gets hellfires, which generally are much worse than Vikhirs at doing anything, and you have agreed with me that they are worse here:

Yeah no one can deny Hellfire slingers are meh at best.