While we’re at it, we need to fix all these German “free traverse” rates. 25 degrees is just a ridiculous estimate based on placeholder Gaijin values. There was no math done to make even a semi-accurate free traverse rate based on other systems. Just a “Similar to other light tank turrets in game” which were all the same players bug reports referencing each other. For example, his suggested rate (which Gaijin have now used) was for a vehicle that doesn’t even have a turret.
Pz.II C, Pz.II F, Pz.II C (DAK) should be using their geared traverse. Which is 12 degrees a second. 360/90 = 4 degrees per wheel turn X 3 wheel turns a second.
Pz.35(t), Pz.38(t) A, Pz.38(t) F should be using their geared traverse. Which is 9 degrees a second. 3 degrees per wheel turn, assuming 3 wheel turns a second. Pz.38(t) n.A. likely would use this value as well but I’m currently investigating.
Pz.Sfl.Ic shouldn’t have a turret. See hyperlink above.
Sd.Kfz.234/2, Sd.Kfz.234/2 TD, Sd.Kfz.234/2 “Biene” are all around the 10 degree mark as well.
Sd.Kfz.222, Sd.Kfz.234/1, Sd.Kfz. 140/1 could very well be slower.
It’s too early to report, but this is the issue when people create values. Free traverse is even harder to gauge than geared traverse, because now you have to factor in the diametre and mass.
I never reported it for the Pz.Sfl.Ic, thats not my fault.
And i referenced it based on the US light M2A4 tanks.
And the option of Free traverse (even if estimated too high, one could argue 15°/sec would have been more fitting.) isnt wrong, even if opinions may differ.
But while your at it, are the US and UK tanks correct, with their hand geared turrets? They are all quite fast. (Tho i wouldnt mind a buff for the Medium M2.)
The M2A4 and M3 Stuarts are probably not accurate. Iirc, one of the major improvements of the M3A1 Stuart was the introduction of power traverse, but the M2A4 and M3 are still traversing at the same speed. That, and 3 other major historical nerfs for the M3 could bring it down to 1.7.
The turret side armor is too thick, and was only raised from 25.4 mm to 31.8 mm in later models, which the in-game version is not.
The fire rate is a bit excessive for the 37 mm M5’s non-semi-automatic breech.
The M51 APCBC round were only capable of reaching 2550 ft/s from the M5 (2600 ft/s from the M3/M6) around the time the M3 Stuart was in service. It wasn’t until some point in 1943-1944 that the alterations to the cartridge or propellent enabled the M51 round to reach 2800 ft/s.
The M2 Medium’s abysmal traverse was definitely just some odd balance decision since they have a ton of leeway to make up whatever traverse speed for manually rotated turrets. It’s slower than the BT-42’s traverse rate atm for Christ sake. It’s also missing the shoulder stab, seen in the top images.
I don’t wish to sound like I’m brushing your opinions off, but this is a ground vehicles only thread. Might want to look for a separate thread to bring this up.
“Just like the Pz.Sfl.Ic same gun, and system and also 25°/sec in game. (The Screenshot doesnt show it fully as i dont have it and its not represented with the Turret traverse improvement modification.)"
I haven’t started on US tanks, so I can’t say. I do believe some of the early Stuart’s might be too high.
Many of the UK ones are. I’ve personally bought over two dozen manuals to report them, or shared those manuals with others to do the same. I’m the guy who caught crap for cutting the Fox and Scimitar traverse in half (man, people online hated that). Even now it’s likely still too fast. I’m trying to track down the gear ratio for the two speed traverse.
Right now I’m tracking down turret ring and turret weights for these free traverse systems. Then I can use Rotational Dynamics and Moment of Inertia to get more accurate turret speeds.
Suggestion for new player retainment. The jump from 2.0 - 2.7 into 3.0 - 3.7 uptiers is massive. Many of these 2.0 - 2.7 vehicles struggle in 1.0 uptiers. This is damaging to new player retainment, as constant losses can put someone off the game.
3.0 - 4.0 is fairly balanced, at least for the major nations vehicles and their copy-pasted versions. 4.3 is effectively a dead BR bracket due to a lack of lineups for most nations. So I think if we shift up most of the 3.0 - 4.0 vehicles to 3.3 - 4.3 we’ll help balance out the new player experience.
USA:
M4A3 105: 3.0 up to 3.3
T18E2: 3.0 up to 3.7
M4A1: 3.3 up to 3.7
M4: 3.7 up to 4.0
M24: 3.7 up to 4.0, and make it Rank III
M4A5: 3.7 up to 4.0
M4A2: 4.0 up to 4.3
Calliope: 4.0 up to 4.3
Germany:
StuH 42 G: 3.0 up to 3.3
Panzer IV F2: 3.3 up to 3.7
Panzer IV G: 3.3 up to 4.0
Panzer IV J: 3.7 up to 4.0
Sd.Kfz.234/2: 3.7 up to 4.0, and make it Rank III
Panzer IV H: 3.7 up to 4.3
M4 748(a): 4.0 up to 4.3
USSR:
SU-122: 2.7 up to 3.0
T-34 (1940): 3.3 up to 3.7
T34E STZ: 4.0 up to 4.3
UK:
Cromwell V: 3.3 up to 3.7
Cromwell V (RP-3): 3.3 up to 3.7
Cromwell I: 3.7 up to 4.0
Ram II: 3.7 up to 4.0
Japan:
M24: 3.7 up to 4.0
China:
M24: 3.7 up to 4.0
M4A4: 3.7 up to 4.0
M4A4 (1st PTG): 3.7 up to 4.0
Italy:
M24: 3.7 up to 4.0
Sherman V: 3.7 up to 4.0
Sherman I Composite: 3.7 up to 4.0
Panzer IV G: 3.7 up to 4.3
France:
M4A3 (105): 3.0 up to 3.3
M4A1: 3.3 up to 3.7
M4A4: 3.7 up to 4.0
AMX-13-M24: 3.7 up to 4.0
Sweden:
M24DK: 3.7 up to 4.0
Pz IV: 3.7 up to 4.0
Sherman III/IV: 3.7 up to 4.0
SAV 20.12.48: 3.7 up to 4.3
Something like this would maintain this brackets internal balance. I’d highly recommend looking at some of Fourche7’s suggestions here. With his M4A3 105 improvements it could potentially even go up to 3.7 in this list. Further improving the new player experience.
I’ve left heavy tanks and tank destroyers untouched for the moment.
leave the M4 (3.7), M24, Calliope, all of the Panzer IV and SD.KFZ,T34(1940), Cromwell 1 and Ram II in their place they are not op yea new players struggle because they don’t know were to shoot all of this tanks can be one tap from the front with the average gun (except maybe the Ram)
germany 4.3 its good but always uptiers in 4.7
help balance out new players is to make them play between them until they reach Lvl 10-15 i feel sorry for them when i go back to low tier to escape top tier cas and i see so many lvl 100 massacre them its unfair for a player that just started seeing someone with more than a 100 hours in game they will destroy him
B1 Bis gets uptiered to 3.3, good luck with your 57mm of penetration at 100m I guess? Can’t even penetrate a Pz IV F2 with track armour, a vehicle all German players love to tell me has terrible armour.
M14/41 gets uptiered to 3.0, good luck with your 47mm of penetration at 100m too? Those M4A3 105 squads will eat you for breakfast.
By moving all of these vehicles at once it maintains their internal balance but also helps out those low tier vehicles.
You want to jump the Pz 4 G up 2 steps?? Seems harsh. Should stop at 3.7
The J, with it’s terrible turret rotation should stay at 3.7. It’s a side-step vs the G. The slightly more powerful gun is offset by the drop in turret rotation.
Another 2-step jump. 4.0 might be more appropriate.
Agreed, but it should get some of the better rounds its currently missing just so that its not too reliant on ever reliable HEAT rounds for dealing with heavier armor.
Giving it an MG 34 mounted behind the shield on the roof would also be nice, but this should happen regardless of if it goes up. I see no point not letting vehicles have their roof MGs.
10.5 cm Pzgr. Rot (APHECBC)
Slightly lower muzzle velocity than the current APHE round, but has sufficient peirce a KV-1 side-on at close range. The explosive mass is slightly greater, and it also has the benefits of being a “-CBC” round.
10.5 cm F.H.Gr. F (HE)
Greater explosive mass and velocity compared to current HE round.
While there are also HE-DS and APHECBC-DS rounds, they would only make sense for a late model StuG 42 G without a muzzle break.
Assuming they never give them filled M61, then sure. Otherwise they’d need to go to 4.0 with the mid-production Shermans.
Ideally, the Centaurs I and III would added in-place of the current Cromwells if they get moved up so that its no loss to line-ups.
The Italian Pz.IV G has the L/48, making it essentially a faster Pz.IV H without hull skirts. If you’re going to move the Pz.IV H to 4.3, the Italian Pz.IV G has to match it.
It needs to go to 4.3-4.7. That quick of an reload combined with large caliber APHE and HE is still going to be broken at 4.0.
