The Aim-9M is already at the suggested battle rating but on the A-10C so what would the issue actually be?
Because right now the Tornado GR.7 has the same missiles as the A-10C but 2 less. The only advantage over the A-10C it has is speed. but right now every one seems ok with the GR.7 facing off against Aim-120’s
So your saying that you can out position an A-10C but not a Tornado which you know is 100% running to a base and then will return to its airfield. There are plenty of 10.7 - 11.7’s that can run down a Tornado easier then they can fight an A-10C
How many subsonic’s would a Tornado GR.7 see if it was 11.7??
If your talking about the GR.1 with 2 aim-9L’s if it went to 10.7. Whats 9.7 - 10.7 subsonic’s would it meet??
But this just simply wont work with most of the aircraft I’ve spoken about if they stay at there respective BR’s
Harrier’s will barely get anywhere on the map without been ran down.
Tornado GR.1 right now faces SARH missile on aircraft faster then it with much more manuverabilty then it.
Tornado GR.7 would and does get killed on huge maps by ARH missiles like the Aim-120’s
So having a bigger EC map would do little to nothing to solve the issues these planes face on a regular basis.
So if the A-10C isn’t an issue because of flight performace then the Tornado GR.7 shouldn’t be, its got decent straightline speed but is still a brick when turning, meaning its actually harder to get off a missile unless its a head-on
See my previous answer on the A10 vs Tornado issue. As for the J35XS, that should be moved down, I completely agree its in a stupid position.
On a faster platform, sorry but 700mph isn’t that fast at 10.0 - 10.3 BR and as I said its a flying brick it can’t turn at all and when it does it will bleed speed with no real way to gain it back. Aim-9L’s aren’t even very good anymore.
For a start I don’t head-on fight a subsonic plane that carries 2 aim-9l’s. most 9.3’s are faster then it so just gun it down from the rear while it can’t outturn, out climb or out accelarate you. Its not about been superior but just knowning not to head-on everything you see.
11.0 would be a starting point to see how it gets on but currently at 11.7, everything beats it and it currently has no place in ARB
OP in what bombing out a base and running away??? Games aren’t won by base bombing anymore, those days are long gone. Nothing I have listed and suggested placements would make them OP at all. It wouldn’t make them suffer as much anymore and again, 99% of the time there used as bombers so can safely be ignored at the start of a battle.
Well balance needs to happen, its unfair that the vast majority of the UK Air tech tree is in garbage positions and no one care’s 1 iota because it doesn’t bother “there” games, but people like me who want to fly these get shit on every time we load in. So yes balance needs to happen regardless of decompression
That doesn’t mean I don’t think decompression shouldn’t happen as I believe we should have atleast a 20.0 spread
The difference in speed is massive. If I see an A-10C 5 km away, I generally always have time to turn away if I don’t want the engagement, or at least pick a fight on my own terms. A Tornado popping up at that distance is fast enough to catch me if I attempt to disengage, meaning I’m effectively forced to drop whatever I’m doing and full commit headon it.
Also, because A-10s are so slow, they fly a predictable path into the battlefield. I always know roughly where they can pop up from at any given time. Tornadoes might be a bit sluggish, especially if lugging bombs around, but they’re still fast enough to show up only a little behind the main fighter swarm, and from there they can jump vulnerable players from unexpected positions with far more consistency.
I did mean the GR.1, and I specifically included transonics for a reason. 9.7-10.7 is awash with transonic/barely supersonic, flareless planes, who’s only saving grace against the current AIM-9L slingers is that they’re faster than them, so they can outposition them. Put those same AIM-9Ls on something that’s faster, and suddenly they’re two effectively free kills if the Tornado player is awake.
I didn’t say EC maps, I said full EC. That means respawns and long games, with objectives spread out enough that strike fighters will have the ability to make it to uncontested objectives fairly consistently.
As you and I bother know the snail doesn’t make changes to the UK often, so as they stand right now knowning how god aweful gj is at fixing things, the GR.1 with its weaker engine compared to others should be lower then the others. IF the changes you mentioned happen then sure fine yea stay where it is but that IF seems to fade every passing year.
BOL has yet to stop me eating an Aim-120, or missiles like the mirage fire that don’t even trigger BOL makes it a redundent addition in my opinion, It looks cool yea but in game practical use its utter trash
I don’t even understand the logic of putting the S2B in the game at such a high BR. its not like a few counter measures and 2 aim-9L’s made any different to its role and now it gets chased down even quicker. or if up tiered you will never reach a base in time
Not exactly, most are underperforming because they have been given such a high BR and there models a screwed. The Tornado’s only just recent got a slight improvement to turning but cost us some speed and thats without them getting the toys they should have been equipt with but are missing.
No your not, you are never committed to a head-on. Might I suggest you to take out a test flight of a tornado with 5+ bombs attached, flair pods, full tank of fuel ( you really need it ) 2 missiles and then fly as fast as you can will full wing sweep and then try and turn. 2 things happen very very quickly.
You don’t turn very quickly at all so tend to overshoot if your target has turned 90 degree’s away from you.
You loose airspeed so quickly, and sustaned sharp turn will bleed your speed from Mach 1+ down to 500mph or somewhere in that bracket.
You catch a slow Tornado and its dead.
This honestly sounds like your arguing for easy killable targets that you can head-on or are too slow to deal with you, and you seem afraid of a supersonic jet that could in a straight line catch you.
I don’t wish to sound mean but you are the type of player thats a problem and a road block to getting planes balanced as your objection is it doesn’t favour your style of gameplay there for these planes must be kept at a BR where there useless and are always at a complete disadvantage.
Again I can’t stress just how important this point is clearly missed by you. Do not head-on something with all aspects
So you want to be faster then anything that can pose a real threat to you??? Well I want to be faster then everyone else who is trying to kill me before I can hit a base.
So we are at an impass.
Those 9.7’s are still slinging missiles at each other, only difference is all aspect of Aim-9L’s. As I see it there are many supersonic jets at 9.7 that would chase down a 2SB with no issues at all and gun run you. It shouldn’t be punished because we have a select playerbase that do nothing but head-on’s
The alternative being to turn tail, allowing them to get a rear aspect shot on me with an AIM-9L or M, something which is infinitely more difficult to flare?
To be clear, I’m not saying the Tornado is difficult to fight. It isn’t. If I can devote my attention to it, it’s not hard to beat in almost any other jet at the tier. But the missiles combined with the speed would allow it to easily exploit third partying, easily gaining kills on distracted enemies who don’t really have the ability to counter it.
To replay the scenario since you haven’t gotten it yet. I’ve just merged with an enemy and we’re fighting for position. I have a credible advantage here, so I want to press it. Suddenly, a Tornado gets spotted 5 km out. My options are:
Turn out and attempt to run. However, the Tornado is likely faster than I am, so it will catch me and throw a flare resistant/IRCCM missile at me, depending on the model.
Ignore the Tornado, relying on flaring it’s missile. Unavailable if I don’t have flares, and dodgy against AIM-9Ms if I allow him to pick the shot. Doubly so if I have to pay attention to the person I’m fighting, making it easy to miss the smokeless 9M’s launch.
Turn in and force a headon. Gives me the best chance of dealing with the missile and taking the Tornado down, but sacrifices all of my position against the person I was fighting originally.
Sure, the Tornado isn’t the only plane that can third party, but at your proposed BRs it would be the only one to combine difficult to dodge missiles and high speed.
And 30G of pull. And exceptional range. And flare resistance. Pretending the only difference between an AIM-9J and L is the seeker is laughable. Let alone lower spec missiles like the AIM-9Es/Bs that are still standard at 9.7.
AIM-9Js aren’t bad missiles, but the enemy has to get a rear aspect shot on you first (Something you can prevent or at least see coming), and you have options once it’s launched to outpull or outrun the missile. AIM-9Ls can come from anywhere, and have enough range and pull that any reasonably decent shot against a flareless plane is practically a guaranteed kill. Putting those missiles on something that can and will run down every plane in the air is an awful idea.
This is just a strawman argument, and not even a good one. In my very first post here, I’m literally arguing for changes in the gamemode to make strike fighters actually useful and fulfilling to play, rather than trying to shoehorn them into a gamemode that’s blatantly designed around fighters first and everything else never.
All your idea does is force already struggling planes to deal with missiles they aren’t equipped to deal with, just to allow these strike fighters to perform a role they aren’t designed for and can’t do well. A GR1 at 10.7 would still be an appalling pig of a fighter that will lose to anything that isn’t an F-104, it’s just one that gets to have two free kills every game, against players who cannot defend against it. This isn’t fun to deal with, I thought we learned this from when the A-10 was 10.0 and the Su-25 was 9.7.
There’s a difference between something that can catch a Mig-21 vs something that can barely catch a P-51.
So it’ll be the same BR as the J35D, while having flares and 2 more missiles.
Aim-9Ls not being good is certainly an opinion. Why should a fast-ish platform with Aim-9Ls be facing 9.0 and 9.3 planes that are barely supersonic (if even). What about the Av-8s at 9.7, or the Hunter F.58 at the same BR? They would need to go down too, because they aren’t only 0.3 worse than the Buccaneer with 9Ls.
Headons aren’t the only thing you do.
They would be OP at 10.7. That would put them on par with a Sea Harrier, which is something that can’t really go down either.
me when i lie
You can’t ask for decompression, and then ask for the tornados to be moved down by 0.7-1.0 BRs.
It’s worked for me in the Typhoon.
That isn’t unique to tornados. Go play a 10.7 or lower Mig-21 or any other delta wing and you’ll experience similar things.
Depends on the plane. The Mig-21S only has R-3Rs and R-3S’s at 9.7, and it lacks flares completelty. Aim-9Ls also have an extra +10g of overload over any other missiles at that BR, as well as being all aspect (which doesn’t just include headons).
To be pedantic, the R60Ms are also 30G, but with much more limited range and flare resistance. Magic 1s are 35G, but again have lower range and aren’t all aspect. Doesn’t change your point, just pointing this out before someone attempts to use them as a counterexample.
AIM-9Ls are unquestionably one of the best non-IRCCM IR missile in the game due to the combination of the all aspect seeker, high range and reasonable flare resistance. They are trivially easy to use compared to other missiles in this BR range.
MAA-1s on the AMX A-1A can be better, so long as you arent dogfighting at close range and I would overall consider the R-24T, R-27T and R-27ET as all better than the 9L whilst none technically being IRCCM.
But 9Ls are certainly good all-rounders (though underperforming)
Probably fair, I have no experience using them but 45G is pretty nutty. I doubt it’s a big difference since 30G is more than enough for most shots, I’ve never had someone outpull an AIM-9L before but maybe it would allow more aggressive off bore sight shots?
This is arguable, they certainly crush the 9L in range and possibly in flare resistance, but aren’t as agile for close, off boresight shots (At least for the 24T). I admit, I don’t have any personal experience using them, but while people often talk about how useful they are for long range surprise shots, I’ve not heard anyone hyping them up for their performance in dogfights. I could be wrong.
I forgot about the PL-8 (I don’t fly Chinese aircraft), that’s certainly up there with the 9L. I’ve heard the PL-5C is probably the best rear aspect IR missile, but not being all aspect would limit it.
A big weakness of the MAA-1s is that they are fast off the rails and have quite a long (relatively speaking) guidance delay. So used at close range, they can miss targets despite that high G
Probably true, though I rarely find 9Ls all that reliable in dogfights or massively off Boresight either. I tend to use them in as straight of a shot as I can. Though Im also often using them on aircraft not all that suited to dogfighting, so… maybe a biased opinion.
Ah, Magic syndrome. That tracks. Probably overall comparable with the 9L then.
To be clear, by off bore sight, I’m not talking about the crazy nonsense thrust vectoring missiles like the R-73 and MICA can pull, just that it’s far more forgiving when lining up shots against manuevering planes, and that it’s not a big deal if I can’t pull enough lead to give the missile a perfect flight path.
Running is stupid against anything faster then you, thought that was fairly obvious so I don’t really take that point seriously.
Don’t ignore the Tornado for the same reason you wouldn’t ignore another fighting rushing into to help secure a kill his team member is fighting, I don’t see how a Tornado getting to you slightly faster then any other fighter would makes any difference at all. Also there are supersonic fighters at those BR’s that are faster then the Tornado and can hold a turn fight better.
Guess what, this isn’t a 1v1 game so your just out of luck and now have to deal with 2 planes, just like any other battle regardless of what ever plane is coming.
3.Turning in statistically gives you the worst chance to avoid a Tornado.
At 10.7 if your turn fighting a GR.1 with Aim-9L’s isn’t hard to flair off or out turn. At 11.7 for a GR.7 I’m sure most if not all ( citation needed ) have flairs to pre-flair to mess with Aim-9M’s, and there are very few planes at 11.7 that aren’t supersonic and at low level are actually faster then the Tornado so statistically speaking you’d be in one of those.
Or the most obvious point of all, most Tornado’s prioritise bases and will actively avoid the furballs and fighters, maybe on the return they might try and sling there missiles but most likely will once again avoid fighting to go re-arm faster and try and get in a second bomb run.
So 2 issues I have with this.
Aim-9L’s have a much closer range to lock in front aspect you will absolutely know if something is going to shoot at you with a tiny bit of situational awearness.
Tornado’s aren’t outturning missiles very much at high speeds due to wing sweep and poor turning. Some of the aircraft with Aim-9J’s are actually faster then the Tornado at below 15,000ft and some like the F-109’s can keep up with a tornado all day long.