The Tornado IDS ASSTA1, Tornado GR.1 and Tornado IDS (1995) sit at 11.7 for no reason. They don’t have anything of advantage in air battles compared to the 11.3 variants. They have the same bad flight model for air combat, same AIM-9L missiles, same cannons which do questionable damage.
The only positive aspects of the tornado is flying fast (so do many planes at that BR) and bomb bases (not possible often times if you have planes like F-104S TAF, Kfir Canard, Mig-23MLs bombing bases). The other advantage is guided bombs but those are not relevant to air game modes.
It is my understanding that strike aircraft with limited air to air armaments and combat performance should get better armaments compared to the fighters of that BR. For example, they should get all aspect missiles when fighters have rear aspect missiles, IRCCM missiles when fighters have all aspect missiles and good SARH missiles.
At 11.7, all aspect missiles become a common thing among fighters. Mig-23s get up-to 6 all aspect missiles, Thai F-5s and Kfir C2 get Python 3. You face fighters with long range SARH missiles and PD radars just a step above in BR.
These tornadoes are not the only victims of this poor implementation. The strike M2K is set at high BR as well.
This was suggested in the October battle rating changes thread but it was ignored without any valid reasoning.
Please consider this post and revise the BR (across all air modes) of the above tornadoes.
Cause the Tornado platforms have been on the edge of 11.7 for air RB since they were introduced.
2 Bases of bombs/12 ground targets destroyed, then 2 AIM-9Ls for defense on the way back to rearm.
Cause the Tornado platforms have been on the edge of 11.7 for air RB since they were introduced
Doesn’t mean they have to be at the same BR forever. BR revisions exist for a reason.
2 Bases of bombs
Unlikely because you become slow and your teammates beat you to bases. There are many planes that can beat you to a base even if you carry 5 bombs (enough for one base).
then 2 AIM-9Ls for defense
You are not going to be defending anything except if the fighter that threatens you is a flare less plane. If a fast fighter wants you dead, you are dead (or you just zoom away and hope they leave you alone/their plane is not capable of catching you).
also, remember, in the tornado, you only NEED one round in the ass and you can’t control the plane, your survivability is practically zero once someone start shooting at you from the back.
All Tornados are primarily strike aircraft, so it’s probably not the best to play them as fighters…
And besides, the air RB is just a “serving girl” for the grinding aircraft, which you will then use in ground battles…
As soon as they announced the arrival of ground machines in the game, I knew that it would be a problem for the aircraft… eeech…
So you can use the Tornado as an aircraft, on which you load bombs and two missiles for possible self-defense, or after bombing the base, when you return, you join some air combat and at the right moment you shoot down one, if it goes well, two enemy players…
Yes, unfortunately, the activity that Gaijin spends on ground battles is significantly greater than on air battles (a minimum of new, elaborate air maps, everything for tanks)…
So either accept it, or look for an air simulator game, where ground machines will serve only as exploding AI technology…
How many purebred fighters have they added to the game in the last two/three years?
Where are the versions of the aircraft with only guided missiles, US 100 series, etc…?
Tornado GR.4 should be no higher then 11.7 ( Much faster then an A-10C but with 2 less missiles and less ground attack effectiveness, no one is realistically using brimstone in ARB )
Harrier GR.7 Should be on par with A-10C at 11.7 no one know why thats still placed at 12.3 o.0
Buccaneer 2.SB should be at 10.0 - 10.3 That thing should never face SARH missiles or MIG 23’s ( Aim-9L’s aren’t justification enough for the sheer pain these are to play )
Phantom FGR.2 / FG.1 should be 11.7 They aren’t on Par with other Phantom’s at 12.0
How would it be the same BR as the sea harrier frs1e? It’ll also only be 0.3 higher than the flareless J35D, the same BR as the flareless F-104G. Imagine facing one of these in a harrier Gr.1/3, or a Milan.
We don’t need 9Ms on a supersonic platform with half a billion CMs at 11.7.
We don’t need more 9L slingers at a lower BR. Should they really be facing a J29F or Mig-19? The Mig-23 could go to 12.0, but the game is too compressed to do so (and its RWR is genuinely garbage).
Do not recompress the game.
When the Tornado IDS MFG came out, it was 10.7, and it made 9.7 quite bad to play. It has since gone up due to DECOMPRESSION, and not because it is good.
The Harrier all have there issue’s facing supersonic jets with how god aweful there flight performance is but against a Tornado, just turn. The Tornado is a brick and lets face it, there only used to bomb bases so staying either behind or away from it and your all good. Same with all the other things you mentioned, the Tornado isn’t a threat to any of them unless its head-on engagments.
Again the main purpose of the Tornado is base bombing and everything around 11.7 can outfly it so easily. Also the A-10C still is a bigger issues as it can actually turn to get missile lock on you. So yea simple, don’t head-on unless you have ARH/SARH missiles. Other then that the Tornado is dead.
Sorry but now your arguments are just the same rubbish I hear all the time. Its always “oh what about the missiles”
Do you ever consider that the Buccaneer is a bomber??? Subsonic, very slow acceleration, wing wips on 2 tight turns, its a flying brick in game. So yea if you are dying to Aim-9L’s on a flying brick just trying to get to a base without dying then sorry but that is a skill issue.
Sorry but thats garbage, its not recompressing the game, its putting aircraft into possitions where they would fit better. None all of the mentioned planes I have listed are fighters and are never used in those roles. You could argue that the Harrier Gr.7 kinda is but thats due to been so slow your forced into fighting because you can’t beat things to bases or do any ground attacks without been jumped on.
I am interested that you picked out all the “strike” aircraft who’s roll in game are just bombers with little defence but you seemed ok with the actual fighters I mentioned getting BR reduction.
For the love of god, do not send all aspect and IRCCM missiles back down to fight planes that have no useful way to counter them. As bad as it is now, the ones that are there are the moment are solidly subsonic, so they’re relatively easy to outposition. Tornados will easily be able to run down the average sub/transonic flareless planes at this tier.
What these (and all other strike aircraft in every other tree) need is RB EC (Or at least a gamemode like it). Somewhere where they can use their ordinance effectively, and actually play to their role. Don’t try to make them useful in an air to air role, it’s not what they were designed for, and doing so involves putting them up against planes that cannot do anything to stop them.
The A-10 is a threat not because of it’s flight performance, but because of it’s missiles. The same will apply to a tornado. You still didn’t answer my question fully. How is it equivalent to flareless planes at 10.3/10.7? It’s just better in every way.
The issue is with compression, and facing less capable aircraft with less CMs. Good luck facing one in the J35XS, especially since the tornado can catch the draken. The A10 is less of a threat due to it being slow.
10.0 on a faster platform with Aim-9Ls would be incredibly OP. How should it even be in the same match as 9B carrying Mig-17s, J29s or sabres?
My bad for being unable to dodge one without flares, clearly you are the superior player.
They would not fit any better. Maybe 11.0 for the Tornados could work, but nothing lower.
And move them down to the point they would be OP is not the way to fix them.
Because those phantoms are worse than other nations counterparts.
The BRs are already too compressed, do not make it worse in the name of balance.
Tornado Gr1 just needs to be lowered to 11.3 like the WTD61, MFG and A200 are and given their historically accurate Mk103 engines. If it is to remain at 11.7 , then it needs a reason to be at 11.7, like BOL or Aim-9Ms
Tornado Gr4 could do with being 12.0, but the inlcusion of BOL (and hopefully sometime this decade, a BOL overhaul) keeps it going at 12.3. What is needed is a 12.3 sim bracket
Harrier Gr7 does have strengths over the A-10C but really struggles at 12.3 in its current state. If/when we get things like BOL overhaul and PD MAWS it would be fine at 12.3, but until then really needs to go down (also has a long list of GRB buffs too)
Buc S2B could go down to 10.3, I dont think it would do any harm, but its greatest problem is ARB in general, it just isnt designed for a furball.
Phantom FGR2 and F4J(UK) should get their IRL Aim-9Ls and stay at 12.0 and the FG1 should drop down to 11.7.
In addition to this. They need to change the MM from +/- 1.0 to +/- 0.7. Deals with compression without making too much mess
Which would be fine if base kills were guranteed. But given the fact that 9/10 there is no bases to drop bombs on because an F-4, F-111, etc has taken them all, you are left circling waiting for bases to respawn. Ground targets dont reward enough to be a worth while target and leave you horribly exposed given the furball is a matter of metres away.
Which would be fine, if they had IRL flare resistance, as it stands, they are too easy to defeat.
I don’t see much point in moving BRs around at all, to be frank, since the problem is more systemic than that. They aren’t underperforming because they’re bad planes, they’re underperforming because the gamemode isn’t designed to allow them to work.
Literally, when’s the last time you actually saw a strike aircraft at non-airspawn tiers actually striking ground targets? Practically never, right? Both teams arrive over the same cramped map simaltaneously, there’s simply no time for a strike aicraft to even start a bombing run before they’re forced defensive by a wall of incoming enemy fighters/missiles. The only time you see it is when one team has already folded and the victorious team picks off ground targets while the stragglers are hunted down.
Even at the airspawn tiers, where strike fighters actually get a headstart, they are still problematic. The ticket bleed is so quick, that if a decent number of them are left unmolested for any reasonable amount of time they can seal the game by doing low risk runs over and over again.
This means a fighter has to sacrifice their altitude to go after them, which prevents them from helping during the initial fight for altitude that defines most long games. And good luck coordinating a single fighter to go for them, the average ARB game has half the team immediately diving on whatever gets spotted first.
And if the strike aircraft are taken out before they get a chance to contribute (Something that they can’t really prevent), they’ve achieved effectively nothing, and are a lead weight on their teams chances.
The only strike fighters that are meta are either ones who use their airspawn to hunt bombers and energy fight (Do-335, A2D), or ones put at such a ridiculously low tier they crush their opponents with sheer flight performance (Wyvern). Their ability to strike ground targets is all but irrelevant.
They don’t need the Wyvern treatment, they need a gamemode that actually allows them to contribute.
Proper decompression would be ideal, but making the MM 0.7 above 6.7 would be a good solution. It would also allow stuff like the Mig-15s/Sabres to go back up without instantly being thrown into 9.X matches.
Or a Mig-23 because that’s a thing. (napalm on fighters was a mistake)
I’m in favour of making missiles have different levels of flare resistance (close to historical levels within reason (for balance)), because lots of missiles feel quite same-y to use. However, uffing the 9L like that would lead to all 9L carriers going up in BR, and it would be a balancing mess.
The main change for 9Ls is that flares dont work if sat on reheat. Throttle to dry heat first and they are the same as they are now. But too often I see 9Ls do u-turns to go for a flare instead of the big juicy afterburning engine