Gaijin, Stop blanket nerfing an entire game mode - This is just a lazy approach and does not address the cause of the nerf

Only thing I feel would be justifiable to punish is the drop bomb and immediately J out. It does not seem as frequent off-event, but I still see it. Given time to drop the bomb, one can time their UA cycle so that it’s near the tail end of it when they max out the score and minimize penalties from dying like that. At least, flying my PBM it seemed to line up just perfectly for dropping a bomb to then get UA reward little after a minute I did so.

However, this then runs into the issue of punishing legitimate learners who put their planes into flatspins and would rather J out than wait for their slow demise, and people who simply lose track of their attitude and altitude and slam into the ground during a fight.

And then the added problem that with co-ordination you could bypass this punishment still by having a friend in red shoot you down to cut your time-to-score in half.

Thus, punishment meant to punish unsporting behaviour ends up hurting legitimate new players (who we ideally want to on-board as smoothly as possible for continued game mode health) while the abusers can just bypass it with minimal effort.

One thing I’ve been thinking of in terms of rewards remains that flyout cost versus reward potential becomes unsustainable after T4/T5. What if the UA system was changed so that if you die to player kill AND have the score to off-set your spawn-point cost in a full-UA cycle… What if you received full SL capped at spawn cost regardless of time left in your UA cycle while RP gets calculated as it is right now?

It would remove the punishment for engaging in PvP if you don’t want to AFK the remaining 15 minutes, while still rewarding survival and landing.

Rough napkin maths:

  1. My F4U-4B costs 11k to fly-out.
  2. I can earn a reward of 18K if I survive 15 minutes and land.
  3. I max out my score one way or another
  4. I get shot down before the full cycle ends. Rather than be given the ~18 * 0.8 * N/15 SL, I’m given exactly 11000 even if ~18 * 0.8 * N/15 would be higher than 11k. RP reward is scaled as it is right now.

This should at very least make it so that a positive K/D ratio (or successful bomb runs) won’t bankrupt you even if you earn nothing but scaled RP if you don’t survive

There are so many possibilities for abuse, that you really have to be careful what you add and allow. Players will always find a way.

J out in an undamaged plane could be penalized, true.
But then they will just crash or leave and re-enter the game. Whatever is 2 seconds faster…

The main problems in my opinion are the low reward cap and the high costs for dying. You loose rewards AND have to pay the respawn costs.
This is a PvP mode after all, so dying should not ruin you.

Surviving should be important and rewarded, but that can be done by a higher landing multiplier instead of going bankrupt by dying.

4 Likes

Unless you are going to retroactively take the spoils away from previous players. this is a game killer.

I disagree somewhat.

In prop tier, being good at Air RB is very, very easy. It simply requires to climb and choose your target decently. A bit of knowledge also goes a long way, the average player is simply terrible and never recognize an energy trap.

In jet tier, with the short format of the gamemode and the single life, if you want to get anything above 1K/D, you need to work on positioning and awareness, and how to use your missile to the best. It requires a different skillset because getting caught in the furball is an instant death due to the number of missile flying around in 11.0+ matches, and you have no second chance.

In Sim… I play with mouse+keyboard and no trackIR. I get M.U.R.D.E.R.E.D. in dogfights. I don’t think I EVER won a dogfight in Sim. First because I demolish my eyes trying to find enemy planes and then I simply completely lose sight of my opponents at close range and always end up flying in circle trying to find the enemy again before being inevitably shot down.

I tried with vastly different props, and I simply got farmed every single time. People who told me that I should try low tier to learn are completely delusional, those low tier matches end up like 30 minutes of trying to find anyone to fight before being shot down by a 1000 hour sim tryhard with the best plane in the bracket. It’s straight up unplayable, and I tried.

This vastly change in jet tier, and even more in 12.0+ matches, with planes that have powerful radar, RWR and SARH. In these planes I can navigate with the instruments only. I don’t need to kill my poor eyes trying to spot a black dot because the radar does that for me and even highlight it on my HUD. I get an IFF as well, and I can always ambush with IR missiles that have no warning. I actually managed a 1.5 K/D on the F14B by using the Aim54 like they’re AMRAAM with mid-range launch at low altitude.
I still get slaughtered in dogfight because I still lose sight of my opponents, but I now have multiple tries to get a missile kill and it’s overall very easy to just score decently with missiles in Sim thanks to the load of instruments I have. In top tier I’d say flying decently a F-15, F-16, Gripen, Mirage is far easier than any WW2 prop in sim.

5 Likes

For spotting people: Turn your AA down unless you got like top quality. I noticed dots become much more visible without any anti-aliasin and they disappear less often. Also going to objectives and loitering at altitude will also cut down on difficulty to find people provided it’s a well-populated lobby on a 64x64 map.

As for losing sight of your opponents, you pull on your stick and use A/D to turn then use C to look around without flying in a straight line. Also rolling tends to be the key to not losing your target, and just trying to predict them. I tend to find that if I lose my target and rolling did not help, doing a tight split S or pitchback or sliceback will get you back on their six more often than not. If that fails, you’ll have at least shaken them as well and can extend away for a while to reset/reclimb/reasses.

It’s definitely not easy, but it’s not impossible either. Also, use cannons over mgs. Cannons need ~1 second burst to kill, removing the need for tracking your shots for a prolonged duration and also makes pulling lead at high deflection easier (since you cannot see the enemy under your nose, you dont know if you hit them. With cannons, hitting them just with a few shots is enough).

We did have Operations a while back with just 1 Spawn. But Gaijin disabled them for SB years ago. Those games were fun.

JKA mentioned. Nice.

Depends on the plane.

I don’t, I just hate suicide zombers. The premium Tornado is one of my favorite aircraft to fly in sim EC.

This nerf should obviously come with a rewards buff. But thats pure fantasy land for Gaijin lol. Honestly any in depth changes to sim is pure fantasy.

Gaijin needs to work on their classification system, is what needs to happen. I’m not familiar with those planes, but for example the MiG-27 is a jet fighter when it should clearly be a strike fighter, and they only gave it that designation because of how airspawns used to work.

If your plane is a strike fighter, the mechanics of the game should revolve around that.

But who am I kidding, Gaijin will never fix their classification system lol.

I agree.

1 Like

As a relatively newer player in WT, my impressions of the various game modes are still very fresh.
And for me the jump from Arcade/RB to Sim was the hardest.

Maintaining control of the aircraft, especially in tough dogfights, the significantly limited visibility and the aircrafts often being difficult to see (this should really be improved) are just the most obvious points.

Many of the fights are one-on-one, or close to it.
You spend quite a while trying to either get into a good shooting position and…
Hit opponents or you’re busy trying not to get shot down.
If both know what they are doing, both will fly back to the airfield. One without ammunition, the other with a badly damaged aircraft.
In Arcade/RB it’s different. Normally you are not alone. There is always a way to escape the fight if necessary, as you can fly towards your comrades quite easily. Someone will take care of it.
Then there is the option to switch between destinations. You can often simply switch to another target in the middle of a fight if your current target is too difficult for you to hit. This gives you an incredible number of shooting opportunities. And of course kills too.

Then there’s the matter of flying towards multiple planes shooting at each other to help your teammates. It is often not really clear who is friend or enemy. If your approach is wrong, you and your teammate are dead. In Arcade/RB, it´s not.

BUT! I’m not saying that players in different modes are worse or better than others. I say that Sim is the most difficult game mode and therefore has to have the best rewards (but at the moment these are rather unearthly).

If I have to put in more effort to do something, my reward must be significantly better.

If I want a better reward, I just have to go one step further and accept the additional effort.

So why are there so many more players in Arcade/RB?
That´s easy to answer. Coz this modes are way easier to play. And that´s absolutely ok!

After my first sessions in the sim, I went back to RB with my tail between my legs.

But I always came back. Sim was what I wanted.
And for me it is the best game mode in WT.

And no, you don’t need a stick for Sim.
You need the right settings. There are many Mouse and KB payers in Sim. And they are good! Better than many players with stick.

So, still no… Arcade doesn´t need better Rewards.

All game modes need better rewards so people play the game modes they want rather than be driven to play other game modes for better reward, then complain that the game mode isn’t their playstyle and demand changes.

RB has this happen a lot already with people wanting to arcadify it.

Sim kind of has it as well in the zombers demanding PvE lobbies.

What sim needs is to recognize:

  1. Getting score in a fair pvp setting (your opponent is on par or slightly better; both sides have equal or comparable numbers) has a lower probability than in ARB. This has nothing to do with difficulty or “being a better player” - just a consequence of no markers, lower awareness, lower effective gun range and easier defensive flying.
  2. Getting score in an unfair pvp setting (you’re some veteran sim player seal clubbing newbies or zombers with your buddy) is very easy.
  3. Getting score in an unfair pvp setting (you’re the poor sod flying a 7.7 horton vs 8.7 sabres with 2 hours of sim time) is practically impossible (especially if the enemy escorts the a.i bombers/survey planes - as they are meant to do).
  4. Getting score through bombing/CASing in a full lobby with fair pvp match-ups (enemy tries to intercept you, but you got a fighting chance) has a lower probability, but still higher than ARB due to no markers being in your favour.
  5. Getting score in an empty lobby with bombing/CASing or with air superiority is very easy.

What the consequence of this is non-linear reward scaling:

  1. Lots of rewards for getting your first kill
  2. Diminishing rewards for doing very well

This is actually kind of achieved by the useful actions system!
It gives the bulk of the rewards you need for 1 kill/1 capture/1 base (400 score gives you 75% of reward, 600 86%, 800 90%, 1050+ 92%).

Where the useful actions system fails is that respawn costs do not scale with your score or reward, and the 15 minute cycle is very long if you want to earn an SL profit (get 800 score, disengage and fly behind airfields passively until it ticks and land).

I’m heavily discouraged from playing in fair korean jet lobbies with my banshee because I will go horribly negative learning flying in a competetive environment. This is unhealthy for the game.

If those 2 issues were resolved, I think the logarithmic scaling actually makes sense considering the massive rift between lobby difficulties and playstyles in score potential.

So no, we don’t really need better rewards - maybe to parity with ARB, so that you can progress solely with sim but I feel more importantly: we need a better, more affordable learning environment that encourages active play.

Fixing the spawn costs (your next respawn scales with previous time alive or you are given maxed SL income regardless of how early you died, capped at your plane’s spawn cost - effectively guaranteeing 0 sl lost if you got a kill or capture or base but also no income) is of primary importance to achieve that.

Making the Useful action cycle end and reward you in full for landing would also help. Unfortunately, I think this could be very abusable over korean jet tiers due to much faster aircraft, longer range bombers and BVR/stand-off capabilities. For props and up to sabres on big maps it feels viable though.

2 Likes

Reminder some peoples like AAB/ARB because of just different gameplay even they has no problem for playing sim.

They has ways better options for playing “sim” that is called IL-2s and DCS, Falcon BMS, or X-plane if they like to fly airliners.

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The third person is also nice. I mostly play sim, but would play the hell out of an RB EC gamemode just because of the cinematics of third person view. Especially with the new visual effects being added

2 Likes

I understand your views. And I respect your suggestions too.

But imagine if Gaijin added a game mode where you just have to press a single button. Fly!
And the plane really does everything for you. Dogfights, bombing bases, return to base, everything…
All you have to do is press a single button. And then you can get up, eat something, go out or celebrate with friends.
But the best thing is, you get the same rewards.

It would be the most played game mode…

On the other hand:
Improved rewards in the Sim. More players try to step out of their comfort zone and take on the challenge. You will be rewarded for it. But you can always go back to Arcade/RB for a few relaxing rounds.

What would happen?
Sim gets a few new players. Probably even very good players. And that would be great.

On the other page: 1 click mode…
All other game modes would die within just 2 months

So, stiill no… Arcade doesn´t need better Rewards.

Except this isn’t how sim is structured.

The ability to create lobbies, pick lobbies, pick BR, etc means that the mode is too easy to gameify and make it much easier and non competitive compared to Air RB.

This creates a mode where maxing out rewards is far easier than any other mode. Which is why the rewards keep getting nerfed.

I flew with you in Sim some days ago. And your score was as bad as mine… We both flew fighters… The topscorer was a bomber… with a hughe gap between the first fighter pilot…

The problem u are pointing out is not a sim problem.

I saw you fighting. And your score did not represent the effort you took… It´s just not worth to be a fiighter pilot in sim.

Gaijin just beggs ppl to exploid the bombing runns for farming points with the most less effort ppl can make.

There are so many Zombers, flying on autopilot, to and back to base from their destination. They just stand up, go to the restroom, cook some coffee and so on… They watch netflix…

You just can´t do that as a fighter pilot.

Now you would say, just shoot them down… Sure. They climbed to 6000m+ with their autopilot. And it takes u ages to get up there. The next thing is, the snail nerfed my planes so hard, that bombers are just op at this high alt…
So I think twice climbing up, and getting 1 shotted by a way to strong .50 cal…
It´s just not woth my playtime.

Again, this is best achieved by making it possible for them to actually learn without going into heavy negatives.

While you can absolutely learn at tier 3/tier 2 without losing too much SL - I found very little of the intuition i built there to transfer to korean or early vietnam jets so I die doing stuff that’d have saved me against a prop and leading my shots feels very different.

Coincidentally, br 7-9 seems to be full of bomber lobbies and even if there’s PvP, it evaporates within moments as people start dying. I’ve witnessed lobbies go from full to empty within some 15-30 minutes - something I rarely if ever see flying BR 4.0 or 5.3 aircraft.

Thus it’s less “improve rewards” flat out and more:

  1. Improve spawn costs through various means
  2. Improve the useful actions timer so that you aren’t forced into passive gameplay to ensure you can afford to respawn and not feel like you wasted your efforts. Maybe some kind of overflow system or sth.
  3. Parity with Air RB for rate of progression

This would avoid over-rewarding seal clubbing, a.i hunting & circling air fields, bombing and encourage players to stay in the match even if they’re losing since they know they won’t go -150K sl because they’ve only 3-4 hours in their banshee’s cockpit fighting against someone with multiple days in their saggitario 2.

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Hm, not sure the difference is so big. I looked at my recent Sim matches, most of them attackers/bombers between 10.0 and 11.3, and normaly got around 13k xp per 15 minutes. With my fighter at 11.7, I had about 12k xp per 15 minutes (with premium time, but no premium aircraft).

It’s mostly just the non-premium sustainability.

If you’re trading evenly (which I think is an ideal lobby since it means you and your team are on par with the enemy team and neither is stomping the other), you lose SL faster than UA can offset it. (you max out score with a kill and an assist or a kill and a kill, survive 15 minutes and land and get paid 20K sl. You die next cycle and pay 15K to respawn with only like 3K or so paid out. Next cycle you survive 10 minutes so only get like 14K sl and so forth. Some of the more fun F4U-4B games I had look like… -100K in deaths, +120K in useful actions and victory).

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Yes, absolutely! The cost/reward ratio for fighterpilots is just bad.

Even if u just try to capture a zone with no other plane nearby it´s mostly not worth to fly across half of the map. If u do so, most of the time there is an enemy on the deck u cant see. So there is no captureprogress made. 15 minutes with 0 score… RTB for refuel and another 10 minutes to find a targes to get al lesat some points.

And if you enter a nice PvP, 1 shot is enough to send u back to base with negative SL.

One thing I would definitely like a hard improvement on is…

Battlepass tasks and challenges.

  1. A lot of BP challenges can flat out NOT be done in air sim. Like, last BP had a “play 5 games with 50% activity with 6 nations.” You couldn’t do it in sim, and yet sim already has a way to count as more than 1 battle (boosters last 30 minutes in sim - so… play 5 games could easily hook into the same system logic)
  2. Current BP for germany is the same deal. (play 25 germany games)
  3. Next BP challenge is also not doable in sim (destroy 100 ground vehicles)
  4. The “destroy 3 planes in a bomber” is ALSO not doable
  5. The battlepass tasks should be far less specific. “Kill bombers/strike planes” should be merged into one. “Kill fighters” should include interceptors and strike planes (especially given how some strike planes are basically fighters like the F-84s). Kill 10 fighters should also probably be reduced to just 5. Most prop tier lobbies I see rarely has anyone ever get more than 6-7 player kills unless it’s a very one sided lobby, and not all those player kills will be fighters (good ol’ interceptors!)
  6. this honestly applies to air RB as well but… please make the “Get X assists” BP task also count if a friendly got an assist and you got the kill.
2 Likes

Why should I invest money in the game? To see my planes further nerfed to the ground? Or put in BR´s where I have to face planes made many, many years after my plane was build?

But if I invest in premium time, the rewards are getting nerfed much more if there are enough premium time players. So I would need a super duper extra premium time option to break even…

I play Sim to have a good time. If you check my playtime stats, you can see, I reduced my playtime by about 90%.

So why should I invest money in a game with not much fun/playtime?