Are they supposed to lock onto chaff though? Is that realistic? (I’m asking since I recall people talking about this as if it was a bug and unrealistic)
Anyways if you want I’d be interested to go into customs with you and try notching some of your missiles, or vice versa
Of course it is not realistic, but understandable as a game system. Honestly, the only thing that’s different from reality is that the chaff acts as a fake target to displace radar lock, instead of creating clutter in the air.
Well I’ve reached a bit of a dead-end here without doing any testing. I’ve defeated missiles in notch a few times past 2 days but it’s possible I just ran them out of energy, feels unlikely though. My suspicion is chaff is still as powerful when it comes to their ‘luminosity’ or whatever the chaff-equivalent is, however they don’t divert course towards the chaff anymore, instead they stop tracking and go into IOG, meaning you have to defeat them a bit like 9M. This in my opinion seems to function more as “clutter in the air” like you explain it.
But I’d need to hop into customs with someone to see for myself
When was this change added?
I consider ARH defenses to fall into two categories. Close range and long range. I’m not going to spend much time talking about long range since it doesn’t happen much in WT, but I consider long range to be BVR attacks dozens of km away where you have time to employ assorted techniques to drain the energy of the missile.
While you might find some conditions against certain missiles where a high speed barrel roll or tight turn at the last moment might be enough to escape, largely the missiles can be assumed to have plenty of energy and you need to try to defeat their seekers. The most useful techniques that I’ve used are:
I try to combine these. I want to shoot first and immediately crank on my way to the deck. With ARHs I ideally can dive behind a mountain after shooting first with my own ARHs.
Personally I think notching is a last-ditch technique at close ranges. Just turning away isn’t enough. You need time to hold your notch for your plane to fight its inertia and reduce its closure rate to near zero. That’s not always possible vs attacks launched within visual range. IMO notching and chaffing is much more viable vs distant BVR attacks.
I just tested some notching in a custom, you’re correct in that it’s nearly impossible to notch+chaff right now. We had a few misses where we weren’t sure what happened but it likely couldn’t pull in or something. I still think the old chaff was too powerful but this is too weak. Hope the report goes well
Probably on the 29th, as that is when the game last updated.
Feels like when I’m shooting, always tracks chaff. When I’m notching and going cold, it tracks on me half the time or more lol
I think the most likely answer is the devs knows it’s me personally playing and have built the servers just to frustrate me whenever I get online.
I’m going to drop in here with a couple comments of my own because to be frank I am honestly rather tired of this- though do bear in mind I am talking from a game design perspective and not a realism perspective.
This is a fundamentally unbalanced worldview, especially with how WT works with uptiers. Complaining that an enemy with situational awareness is able to defeat your missile still well out of range of IR missiles is honestly quite stupid imo.
A reminder that the F-15C MISP II, an aircraft with eight AIM-120As faces the F-16A, an aircraft with only AIM-9Ls- a missile that is easily flared and has a front-aspect lock range of only three kilometers.
Add onto that the fact that BVR is:
A: Honestly very boring gameplay-wise,
And B: that it in many ways invalidates any aircraft that cannot do BVR,
And I am sure that many of you can see the problem.
WT was not ready for Fox-3s, and attempting to make them better will only compound the problems they are already causing.
I don’t dislike this version because it offers the most realistic BVR combat.
If you take a kinematic approach, you can do the combat without any problems.
But on the other hand, chaff is completely disabled against radars like the F4E’s radar, which cannot distinguish chaff, and I have to say that this is unrealistic.
However, given that gaijin adjusts multipath uniformly with and without monopulse seeker, it may not be surprising that gaijin has introduced such a specification as a normal decision.
You don’t even have any supersonic jets, let alone top tiers. You have never experienced the gameplay at top tier, yet here you are saying how it is.
Well if you wanna realism then play DCS. Why would you play WarThunder if you want realism?
“Well if you wanna arcade then play Ace Combat. Why would you play WarThunder if you want arcade?”
It’s not in the case of the more short ranged planes. While positioning matters a lot, on planes like Mirage and Su-27 with close range ARH (and 10km HMD in the soviet’s case), you want to stay in notch angle until the target is close, then use HMD for a quick missile launch before immediately going back in the defensive.
A nerf to notching is a nerf to the entire playstyle of the short-range ARH carrier, which were already inferior to the AMRAAM carrier.
No lmao
It’s like giving your opinion on a painting, when you’ve been blind your entire life. “Eyewitness reports and content creators” aren’t gonna cut it.
Unlike tanks, planes differ so much, that you can’t give any opinions on modern jets with fox 3s, if the most modern stuff you’ve flown are gen 1 jets. The gameplay changes drastically. Notice how jets are commonly divided into generations, while MBTs much less so.
This is completely worthless coming from you, who has never played top tier, especially the A point.
Even if some of it is true, most likely you’re just repeating someone else’s opinion.
Subtle details make it clear you don’t know what you’re talking about.
For example, you compare AIM-9Ls to AIM-120s. It’s comparing apples to oranges, everyone who plays top tier would just say that F-16A has no BVR missiles and wouldn’t even bring up the AIM-9Ls .
Someone who actually plays top tier would compare F-15A or F-16A ADF to F-15C or F-16C, because the difference between Fox 1s and Fox 3s is the same as Fox 1s and no BVR missiles at all.
F-16A will always face planes with Fox 1s, it doesn’t make a difference for the F-16A whether they have Fox 1s or Fox 3s.
I guess modern jets are just stupid for you, so you should stick to props and 40-60s jets.
You may find that from a gAmE dEsIgN pErSpEcTiVe laser range finders are stupid, because they take away all the skill from aiming. Guess what, no one cares. Modern MBTs have them irl, so they should have them in the game. If I wanted to play a well-designed game, I would play some e-sport game.
At this current moment time. Several aircraft have BR placements purely due to the addition of AMRAAM. Such as the Sea Harrier FA2. This is at best a 9.7 airframe with a better engine and a good radar. Remove the AMRAAM and its 11.3 with Aim-9Ls and 11.7/12.0 with Aim-9M. Its currently at 13.0.
For it to be at that BR, we need AMRAAM to be somewhat reliable, to be able to fire at a target and kill that target unless they are actively defending. Otherwise the current BR placement for aircraft with AMRAAM becomes irrevelevant and its all about WVR Combat.
This really isnt an uncommon sight:
That F-4 made no attempt to defend against my AMRAAM, he was just flying low and spamming flares. That was it.
The last year or so has been rather dull at top tier as no one climbs. At all. The meta has been fly at tree top level unless you want to die. Seeing people climb again has been amazing and makes playing air modes feel like im playing a jet and not a tank.
Now I personally want to see MP removed entirely for Sim as that is the fully realistic mode. But I can accept a small buffer zone in ARB. But I think it could be a tad lower than what is currently, especially with the introduction of countermeasure pods like Phimat and the RALT. It certainly doesnt need to be restored to the 100m it was before
My main issue with this is what happens to aircraft that have WVR missiles- though I do understand your point about stuff like the harriers. A compromise that could work is massively increasing the effectiveness of chaff (Especially at close range, where other tools to defeat radar missiles are iirc much more difficult), but having MPing removed entirely- at least for Fox-3s.
My point is that AMRAAMs cannot be so good that IR missiles are inviable, because that completely fucks over anything that relies on them. Sim is an entirely different bag, and imma be real I have no idea what to do with it- since at least there, realism can be a bit more prioritized over balance.
cough
cough
That is incorrect, what I am calling stupid is their statement from a balance perspective. I actually am quite a fan of many modern jets, but again, my main concern here is strictly from a balance perspective.
Honestly. Chaff is over-performing a lot already. The only aircraft that I’ve struggled to notch/chaff (both ARH and SARH) in are stuff like the FA2 and F3 (and to lesser extent but still noticable in the Gripen) I dont have a lot of top tier aircraft, and Im waiting on some pretty major bug fixes / additions before I get into it properly. But these aircraft struggle in part because they use BOL for chaff and it is nerfed to hell at the moment. Fix that and they would all be perfectly fine defending without having to use MP. (or for the F3 at least, add the newly added Phimat pods to it for 216-432 large calibre chaff)
IR Combat does become more rare (but not that uncommon either, maps are very small still). and it is a limitation of the AB/RB matchmaking system that full utpier/downtiers have to be considered. But many of the aircraft at top tier are BVR focused. That is what modern combat is about.
So we might need a better decompress (or id vote for an Air Sim style BR Bracket system being applied to ARB that way uptiers are optional) and then the game becomes balanced just fine.
With the future additions just around the corner like the Typhoon and Rafale, the only way top tier remains balanced is for BVR combat to be vialbe and the focus. Look at the Gripen. It was IR only, in a IR Meta and so badly dominated they had to apply fake nerfs to it (BOL nerfs are 100% fake). But now we have BVR Combat, Id say its actually fairly balanced these days
Ah, fair enough. The one thing I also think should be considered is quite frankly a hard cutoff at Fox-3s, or at least a more significant BR spread. (Either that or BR-specific multipath/differing multipath for different planes)
I am honestly fine with top tier being BVR- as long as the lower-tier WVR-only and Fox-1 carriers are still viable.