Following the Roadmap: Voting to Test our Proposed APHE Shell Changes

Today, we’ll be talking about changes to the post-pen effects for APHE shells used by ground vehicles that we plan to introduce into the game. We’re ready to show you what we have planned here, and at the end of this news post you can participate in voting for or against — whether there’ll be changes or not all depends on your vote. Let’s take a look!

Preserving fragments in the head part of the shell

First off, we’d like to tell you about a change that we consider necessary and will be implemented into the game without any vote. This change relates to maintaining the integrity of an APHE shell’s head after armor penetration. When an APHE shell explodes, its warhead is not subject to significant fragmentation and can cause substantially greater damage than the scattering fragments of the case and base.


Fragments of a 75mm M61 shell after it exploded. Note how intact the warhead is.

The fragment of the shell’s warhead is significant in mass, can penetrate armor of considerable thickness, and at the same time also form secondary fragments when penetrating armor. This change will allow the warhead to better hit enemy crew members located behind internal partitions, such as the engine compartment bulkhead, as well as other modules along the shell’s flight trajectory that cannot be penetrated by small fragments generated from the shell exploding.

Increasing secondary fragments and high explosive damage

Due to a number of technical reasons, secondary fragments from APHE shells differ and are worse compared to fragments from regular, solid AP shells. When reworking fragmentation fields, we’ll enhance the secondary fragments of APHE shells to the level of solid AP shells.

The high-explosive damage from APHE shells will remain — it causes relatively little damage, affects the crew and modules inside the tank and has a damage zone in the form of a sphere around the detonation point of the shell. The diameter of the damage sphere of high-explosive damage is noticeably smaller than the scattering zone of secondary fragments.

Implementing fragment areas

Here are the changes that we’d like you to vote on, whether they’re introduced or not will be determined by community vote: scattering sectors of fragments from APHE shells.

When a shell explodes, three main fragmentation areas are formed, shown in the image below:

  • The remainder of the shell’s head and its fragments.
  • Fragments from the base of the shell.
  • Fragments from all sides of the shell (the case).


*Translation (Pic.113): Scattering of the APHE shell fragments on impact

When a shell explodes inside of a tank or armored vehicle, the shell’s head acts as a small solid AP round and may penetrate more internal modules. Alongside this, smaller fragments from the shell casing form a fragmentation cone and hit the crew and modules around the explosion point. We plan to implement both of these to the game.

At the moment, we use a simplified fragmentation pattern for APHE shells in the game without segmentation into different areas. If we were to implement the proposed physically reliable sector fragmentation patterns for APHE shells, the post-pen effect of APHE shells will be more realistic. However, when hitting protruding modules, such as the commander’s cupola, the probability of crew damage would be reduced.

image

Damage probability from the explosion of a BR-412D shell behind armor with the current fragment distribution

image

Damage probability in the same scenario with the proposed fragment spread

Reworking the post-pen effects of APHE shells can change the tactics of the game, making protruding weakened areas less vulnerable. However at the same time, post-pen effects after penetrating the hull of a vehicle due to the preservation of the shell’s head after the shell explodes will be increased.

We’d like to hear your opinion on this — share it in the comment field and vote Yes or No for the changes to post-pen effects in the poll!

In-game examples of the described changes

Here’s some screenshots of how damage to ground vehicles will be altered with the changes implemented.

Post-pen effect when penetrating the center of a tank without preserving the head of the shell (before) vs while preserving the head of the shell (after):

BEFORE:

AFTER:

Post-pen effect when the commander’s cupola is hit by a spherical spread of fragments from a shell explosion (before) vs hit with a physically reliable sectoral scattering of fragments from the shell explosion (after):

BEFORE:

AFTER:

We’re planning to give players the opportunity to test these changes in a special game event, as well as the “Protection Analysis” menu, before applying these changes to all APHE shells in the game. However, preparing this testing will require some significant time from the development team, so today we want to collect your opinions on whether you’re interested in switching to a more detailed damage model for APHE shells. So, shall we test it?

If you’re interested in testing, we’ll start preparing it and will host another voting on this change based on its results.

74 Likes

Interesting

2 Likes

This might even help make the M60 and its variants with the massive poorly armored cupola less of a glaring weakspot.

43 Likes

Wasn’t this supposed to be there from the beginning?

2 Likes

Just to make it clear, since it is not immediately
obvious from the photo: the nose of the shell itself is this part in the red circle. The long cone to its immediate left is the windshield:
IMG_20240813_175929

18 Likes

So basically you wanna kill only one good shell type in this game.

30 Likes

Nerfing the overpowered shell.

78 Likes

Making the game more realistic is always a good thing, it also makes nations that don’t use APHE actually viable.

72 Likes

Yes. I want to see these changes and have them tested.

4 Likes

realistic repairing in the open field in 20 seconds.

so - instead of improving ap, you want to nerf the only good projectile?

19 Likes

It is a step in the right direction but this fragmentation pattern still doesn’t match real life, because it does not take into account the residual forward velocity of the shell after it perforated the armour:

Compare this:

To this:

Source:

Spoiler

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EtcRMThYZHg

54 Likes

do these changes also imply that APHE shells stop being stopped by fences? because right now, APHE is just terrible as it is. APHE shells explode against just about everything. fences. trees. advertisement collums. because there is this thing called science. where an object in motion, remains in motion.

the shell might explode. but the charge is at the rear end of the shell. it might change the trajectory a little, but its still a shell thats moving at 700kmh. the bulk of the shell will just continue flying. it might act as a solid AP shell where the HE charge exploded against the object, but what is happening right now in the game, is that the entire shell just disappears. it acts too much like HEAT shells.

5 Likes

I would rather have gameplay over realism

31 Likes

maybe other way round?)
AP shells cannot even make red (and often black) ammo explode.

5 Likes

I like it because in my opinion it reduces lethality in general, which is especially positive for beginners, because they will be less likely one hit, without a chance to save the situation.

If the lethality will be in fact reduced, then it should also increase viability of other shell types, making the choice of ammunition carried to battle more interesting.

As mentioned at the actual vote page, I am looking forward to testing phase to see how it behaves after those changes.

6 Likes

Great to see we’ll be able to give a final opinion after testing! Such a big change to the function of a huge number of tanks definitely requires lots of testing and discussing before a final decision is made.

4 Likes

Velocity and momentum should be taken into account, I hope it will be.
If it will be ignored all we will get will be APHE but a with some holes in the sphere.

19 Likes

Go play world of tanks then. War thunder is a game based on realism. APHE will still be the best shell by far but with this change it will not be oppressively OP and will require a slight amount of skill to play with, that’s right APHE user’s will now have to aim.

38 Likes

Secondary fragments are spall fragments generated by armor spall.

Solid AP rounds do have better secondary spalling than equivalent APHE rounds.

1 Like

Making the best shell in the game worse so it matches the performance of the other shells seem like a good gameplay decision to me.

15 Likes