I disagree here, because many SPAAGs have been unfairly punished for going AT, when the gameplay strongly encourages, if not requires, them doing so in most BRs outside SAM tier to be effective.
To use a non-radar AA well, you need to move out of your spawn. This means its highly likely to run into tanks. If you can’t defend yourself, you’ll cower in spawn and be a hindrance to yourself and your team. Planes will know exactly where you are and preemptively avoid that.
This is true, but nevertheless related to the overarching problems of how SPAAGs are implemented in general.
And fixing volumetric armor will be anything but easy when you have thousands of vehicles still using partial or complete old 2D-plate-based armor models.
If it were up to me, I would do the following, all simultaneously:
Undo all remaining SPAAG antitank belt nerfs.
Remove stupid ammo count limits on antitank shells for high tier SPAAGs.
Intentionally lower BRs for several SPAAGs which (to my knowledge) have no better shells for their guns to be theoretically given (Skink)
Give as many SPAAG as practical their missing antitank shells. The vast majority of guns are lacking them for no good reason at this point.
For parity’s sake, if any IFVs are missing their best shells for antitank or even anti-air usage, give them said rounds. One example I know of is the Begleitpanzer 57 missing APFSDS.
Give all non-radar SPAAGs a short-range lead indicator out to 1.0-1.5km based on crew Rangefinding skill & training. Radar ones would get this too when radars are deactivated/shot out.
Raise SPAAG spawn costs across the board to the same level the ZSU-57 has.
Allow all SAMs to be dumb-fired for gameplay purposes so that early SAM platforms are also not encouraged to hide uselessly in their own spawns.
Give all users default SPAAG with preset ammo belt selections, akin to how Naval gives people default aircraft (I also think Ground should give default aircraft in addition to this, but that is a separate topic). Then nobody has an excuse if they die to CAS - they had a counter and chose not to use it.
Yup - its 60mm at 40 degrees at most, not even the whole turret. I doubt that would stop even a US 75 or Russian 76. I was getting my gunner disabled by a 12.7mm DShk on a Chinese T-34/85 last night.
Yet autocannons from ground vehicles and low caliber cannons from aircraft can be tanked by the Flakpz 34’s turret. Therefore, my point still stands that the armor is more than satisfactory for the BR range it faces.
Well, it would. Because killing light tanks is never an issue but killing medium and heavy tanks is.
At higher BRs medium tanks get more mobile and have better reaction times.
Right now the Flakpanzer 341 could go straight to 8.0, with its ability to instantly shred tracks and barrels and hit cupolas and other small weakspots repeatedly with APHE.
Only thing that’s going to stop it is when medium tanks have a mobility advantage.
But even then it still has super fast turret traverse speed.
Maybe if it wasn’t so fast it wouldn’t be such a problem.
The ZSU-57 was built basically on the premise of the Flakpanzer 341 with dual 55mm cannons.
But the ZSU-57 doesn’t have incredibly fast traverse speed.
The Flakpanzer 341 was never completed so the turret traverse is basically made up.
It could easily be nerfed to 20-30°/s.
Any cannon that has more pen than .50 can pen it and most of the time you will get shot from tanks and they will pen you.
Besides, Coelian have wrong armor on the turret front. First design had 100 mm and second 70 mm, I don’t remember which one we have.
If AP belts were limited to being self defense only, that would be no problem at all. But they are not (obviously), which essentially creates pseudo-IFVs at BRs where your main vehicle of choice should be a proper tank.
While current map and gameplay design does not allow SPAAs to be effective in A2G role, they can still be effective in A2A and thats all they need to be, until we get proper fix of the issues. Besides, even in their currently nerfed state they can still contribute to A2G by disabling tracks, barrels or generally providing supressive fire.
I much rather prefer this approach of SPAAs being weak in A2G to having to constantly fight pseudo-IFVs which are faster than me and have just enough armor to be immune to sub-.50cal machine guns on city maps.
Just look at Falcon. That SPAA was 6.7 back when I started and it was continuously played as IFV instead of SPAA - now it sits at 8.3, being irrelevant in A2A role due to presence of radar guided 35mm SPAAs, leaving a massive gap between BRs of 5.3 and 8.3 in the UK TT.
Ive recently started playing UK 7.7 and let me tell you it isnt exactly fun playig Bosvark as AA against jets.
But quite a few of those “fixes” you suggested would also entail lot of work, mainly BR balancing (not to mention I disagree with few of those quite lot). You cant just unnerf A2G capability of every SPAA and leave them at their current BRs.
Sure, it would be still less work than fixing maps and volumetric, but wouldnt solve those issues and they would still need to be fixed.
This simply wouldnt work, because as far as I know, these aircrafts are randomly selected. Not every SPAA is created equal. Not to mention the aforementioned existing BR gaps that would get only worse with unnerfing SPAA A2G capabilities.
Than do be sure to remind Gaijin to remind the ground cannon belts for aircraft rocking 20s and 30s that their munitions are supposed to be penning the Flakpz 341’s turret.
Because they don’t even when you’re performing a high-angle dive on the thing.
You’re either being disingenuous or you haven’t really paid enough attention when fighting the thing.
My man, if you shoot at 60 mm part of the turret you can’t pen, but rest you can, but this is not the problem but rather tank guns.
I have no problem with Flakpanzer 341 moving up in the BR’s In fact I thing it would be fair but your argument isn’t good.
I don’t care that it has armor and an enclosed turret.
I care that it has overperforming APHE that turns it into a pseudo-IFV. That’s my beef.
My beef has always been that APHE needs to be nerfed to realistic behavior.
It’s always been ironic to me that people only complain about the APHE on SPAAs and always conveniently choose to forget that APHE also overperforms on every other gun platform that fires it as well in-game.
I understand now. You were saying about armor so i thought that’s your problem. IIRC GJ tested more realistic way APHE deals damage but they did not implement that.
Yes APHE is somewhat better than it should, but this is problem with all APHE not just with Flakpanzer 341.
You should complain then in topic about damage model of APHE, if its exist and I will maybe join you.
… That’s exactly what I said that APHE overperforms across the board.
It’s just that people conveniently, purposefully forget that and only complain about it when SPAA has it and can absolutely body people using it.
As it stands, the Coelian should be uptiered if the APHE isn’t going to be removed, as it’s nonsensical that a SPAA that beats the Kugelblitz in every metric is nearly a whole BR range below it.
As for the APHE issue as a whole, yes it needs to be revisited in the forums, though the reason I am bringing it up chiefly is because it has a lot to do with how the Coelian has made a resurgence in the 5.3-7.3BR ranges in the last day.
It won’t because they existed.
Kugelblitz is bit overtiered and Coelian should be bit higher.
Lot of people playing a vehicle isn’t a problem, we already had way greater spam of certain planes and tanks, we even have this problem now and not only Coelian, in fact there isn’t to much of them currently because a lot of players that have it don’t play anymore.
Trust me, I’m not happy either that the API-T functions like APHE post-pen - It shouldn’t but here we are thanks to Gaijin and because of them API-T is API-T in name only.
