Fair!
Sure, but what I meant is that typically tanks with great mobility don’t have 20 or 30 second-reloads.
Usual problem: Gaijin wants people to play these. Can’t control player behaviour. If they are perceived to not be competitive then they will rarely be used. Event vehicles like the Sturmtiger can get away with this because they serve the game in other ways (FOMO/collectable) but a main tech tree vehicle will usually not be placed at a BR where it’s just a gimmick.
I think all tech tree tanks should be viable to play.
They don’t have to be meta, but if the M44 / M55 were at 7.3 (where the M47 is at the moment), they’d largely just be a gimmick.
M44 / M55 are not really meta at 4.0 (though they may be annoying ) but at least they are relatively viable if played right.
Im not saying that they should be unplayable; just that their playability cannot come from the fact that they have similiar HP/T to contemporary light tanks, at least for their current BR.
Way I see it, they can still be a full gimmick while remaining playable in some capacity.
Lets take the M55 as example.
The whole vehicle is defined by its 203mm gun.
Currently, the overpressure penetration on its main shell is only marginally better (64.7mm for shell with TNT equivalent of 23.06kg) than the overpressure penetration of the M44 (61.1mm for shell with TNT equivalent of 9.14kg). Currently, according to protection analysis, a direct hit to the Maus turret face will damage a radiator and…thats really it.
Why not just fully commit to the vehicle gimmick - fixing the overpressure penetration of 203mm gun (larger than those found on some of the ships), and make it truly a one shot wonder. Make a direct hit tear tank apart. Make direct hit to the turret face obliterate the turret ring. And place it at BR where its mobility isnt better than most mediums.
That way, we will have a vehicle that is gimmick, but a viable one due to the power of the gun, on condition that it is played right.
Same can be done for vehicles like FV4005 etc.
Never said they are, they are just incredibly annoying to face in regular tank.
If you think about it for a second, you have basically described the Sturmtiger. There are caveats to differentiate it of course, like the much longer reload, but the Sturmtiger is similarly a tank that can one-shot any single ground vehicle that exists in this game if played correctly, and yet it is encountered very rarely. I myself only take it out once in a blue moon and yet I would say I enjoy it - I’m just not often in the mood to play it, because it does put you at a handicap.
Like I said earlier, the Sturmtiger can get away with being gimmicky because it’s a rare and famous event vehicle, not a regular tech tree vehicle, but who would touch the M55 if it was like that? “Sacrifice every other factor for the chance to one-shot any vehicle in the game”.
Definitely not as many people as are playing the M44 and M55 now.
So if you look at it from a game design POV, the answer is obvious…
It is. Sadly.
Yeah, thats my issue - too many people play them currently over normal tanks.
The snail gives, and the snail takes away.
Like I always say, the MMO logic must always be kept in mind when looking at issues in WT.
While the MMO logic comes with some pretty big downsides, it also comes with upsides (for example because it enables 12+ years of ongoing development and the creation of literal thousands of vehicles in one game)
The issue with the SPAA, actually not even a SPAA issue I feel like Gaijin balancing is so lazy. All they do is just nerf the vehicle into a higher BR (new flash its still broken ive seen 341s kill IS-3s). I think they should just nerf the pen and return it to how it was; I understand that it is ahistorical but its not the first time gaijin has done something like this with examples of the Sargent York
Ive just smoked Somua SM through commander coupola
Nah chief, im having too much fun handing out karma
No the coelians armor pen is not the problem and it’s completely historical. The problem is the bug that allows ALL auto cannons to completely ignore armor entirely if the victim moves in the wrong direction. That coelian didn’t kill the is-3 because of its armor pen, it killed the is-3 because of that bug the devs still haven’t removed.
No problem, just add Thermals to PZH2000 just as Vidar xd
No thermals so lower BR, simple as that.
Oh, then in that case the 341 or the bug in general will be nerfed 20 major updates later ( i did hear about a nerf but im not sure what it is) :sob: but i still stand firm with gaijin lazy balancing. I am a bit happy that SPAAs are finally being talked about as annoying unfun creatures
All SPHs that I can think of have little to no armour (M44, M55, M109, 2S1, etc), or (at most) enough frontal armour to stop 50.cals (Things like the 2S3M, PLZ05, PZH2000, and VIDAR), and all of them have really bad gun handling (somewhere around 10 to (at most) 13 degrees per second of turret rotation speed.)
FV4005 has barely any armour for its turret, and its mobility is quite lackluster; however, it does have better gun handling (18 degrees per second turret rotation speed), and -7 degrees of gun depression (most other SPHs have really poor gun depression).
Yes, some do.
For example, the 2S1 gets 400mm pen HEATFS at 6.0
However, the overall usefulness of the shell (compared to HE) is much lower, since HEATFS rarely one-shots even when shooting at pretty optimal spots. This lack of damage just isn’t worth the ability to now penetrate the hull and turret, instead of just the turret (hull roof) and cupola (turret roof).
Especially because most of these SPHs at these low BRs have long reloads of 10s, or 13.3s.
Yes, I think they can be annoying.
I think they can be represented as snipers quite easily. They suffer at close range engagements, and you must have good knowledge of bullet drop and bullet travel to kill stuff at range. Most SPHs’ HE muzzle velocity is awful. You have a chance at vaporizing the enemy’s forehead, but you actually need to be relatively good to do that consistently, especially because of the gun depression, and turret rotation speed too.
If you miss, you are often heavily penalized with SPHs because of the lack of armour, and especially the reload, though the mobility of some can definitely help.
I think the SAV 20.12.48 is way more annoying with its -10 degrees of gun depression, 1.2s reload, 100mm pen, overpressuring APHE, than the M44 😅
Even with LRF HE, if you don’t hit the turret in an optimal spot, or the turret roof armour, you are not going to penetrate and kill the vehicle. Though I’m not saying it’s extremely difficult.
Yes, you often can’t outreload the 7.3-8.0 SPHs, and rarely can you push them.
However, they still have the awful turret rotation speed, and they are massive, and are completely unstabilized.
Flanking them is usually easy because of those factors, and breeching them is probably the best option if you are unable to go for their ammo.
I can’t say that they can’t be balanced at any BR, though.
I think the the VIDAR and PZH2000 should both probably be 8.0, maybe 8.3.
They are definitely not that oppressive at top tier, or really any BR where LRF + APFSDS + STAB starts to become the norm.
The APFSDS just gets to them much quicker than HE does, and so you may not be able to avoid the APFSDS, but they can certainly avoid your HE.
At close range, good gun handling and mobility becomes even more important. You aren’t going to win many fights with 10 / 11 degrees of turret rotation speed when most things are stabilized and have (at least) 15 degrees of turret rotation speed.
You also cannot frontally penetrate most tanks at ~8.3, unless you shoot for the tracks / lower turret, or cupola, unlike with ~4.0 SPHs:
Composite / Spaced Armour and ERA also becomes more prevalent, and so HE becomes less and less useful as you go on.
Yes, though the problem is that the Leopard shoots solid shot AP, so you will indeed have to aim for weak spots with direct line-of-sight of the module / crew member you’re trying to go for.
Heavy tanks / well-armoured medium tanks (like the Tigers, M26s, KV-1s, KV-220s, etc), or just tanks with roof-top MGs (Like the Jumbo, Tiger E, T34, etc) will have a much easier time at countering them.
I kinda see that, though I can’t say I find M44s difficult / annoying to deal with. Often times they try to set up and then just die after getting sprayed by 12.7mm shots, at least in my experience.
Yes. I agree here.
I’m not really sure about that one, though.
The Brummbar can frontally soak up most 3.7 / 4.0 medium-tank guns, such as from the M4A2’s, the T-34 (1941)'s / (1942)'s, or even from the Chi-Nu II’s, with the only reliable weakspot being the upper plate of the transmission area.
The M44, on the other hand, can die to any shell, even from 7.62s or 12.7s.
Survivability may be a different story though, since once you pen the Brummbar, 9/10 the APHE shell (of the tanks I had mentioned) will one-shot kill it. This can’t really be said with the M44.
However, the M44’s crew are completely exposed / open-top, so even low-caliber HE shells can just one-shot it, or at the very least disable it from moving / shooting:
That’s true, though with the Chaffee you can’t just 50.cal it.
With the Puma, it actually travels much faster both forward and in reverse and in terms of acceleration (even though the HP/TON is lower with the Puma than with the M44, though this depends on the terrain since the Puma is wheeled).
Both the Puma and Chaffee can engage (and perhaps kill) more than one target every 15s, unlike the M44.
Yes, but I think it’s reasonable given the fact that most can just be killed very easily without a problem.
No, most tanks the Coelian faces can still die to it despite the APHE / SAPHE / API bug fix.
I think the PZH2000 is already on par with the VIDAR, even without the thermals.
The PZH2000 has better reverse speed, better turret rotation and gun elevation speed, better proximity fuze round muzzle velocity, and an autoloaded 5s reload (you don’t need ace crew, unlike the VIDAR’s 6s reload).
Though the VIDAR gets better turret armour (all around), thermals, better acceleration, and better gun elevation.
I think that’s fair.
At the time of making that comment i did go off the wiki, not in game, had arcade gun handlinds listed for whatever reason. my bad here.
enough armor to stop 7.62 MGs. not saying thats good, but it does limit your option when you are in the tank WITHOUT .50cal.
Its the same issue i have with some SPAAs that would play like pseudo-IFVs if they had access to better anti-tank shells.
Im not even implying it is the meta round, but just as with smoke shells, they do open several tactics aviable over to tanks that do not have them.
My lvl 150 crew can repair at the fastest in 20 seconds, and thats assuming no crew member (or what remains of him) is being currently poured into the bucket.
Again, im not saying it is the meta round. but it does have its uses, and in some scenarios it can easily enable a follow up finishing HE shot - specifically in those where first HE shot would be dangerous, or impossible.
Anecdotal experience, but numerous times ive been criplled by HEAT shell through the strongest portion of my armor only to be finished off by HE shell, since the SPH had all the time in the world to position itself and aim.
In regards to non-LRF arty, I would have zero issues if they were played like snipers with occasional CQB self-defense. But, from my personal experience, theyre just played as tracked variant of Dooms super shotgun. Rush in thanks to your mobility, and close-range face blast the heavy tank that has no chance in world to react in time.
Another anecdotal experience, just recently I was in match with my Sherman (Hell) on Fields of Poland. Went into city, suddenly got bum rushed by M55. I wasnt initially aiming at him, off by few degress, and i started to turn as soon as he appeared. Still, he came off as the victor, because I needed to aim precisely at his gunner/commander or gun breech, while he just had to get part of my hull into his crosshair.
Would I be dead if it was any other tank? Depends, because any other tank would have to aim for armor where his shot wouldnt be bounce due to angles, which could give me the milisecond i needed to disable him first.
That is true for most tanks tho, not SPH specific. Difference is that at CQB ranges, SPHs dont have to be as accurate with some tanks.
Oh definetively.
Sure, but it sure is easier to land a shot with Pzh2000 than with conqueror when im playing sands of sinai.
Thats their only saving grace (as far as being opponents goes).
Obviously.
I agree with this one. Thats why I think they are terrible addition.
They have time to do that once they disable your gun; and unlike with usual tank guns, they do not concern themselves that much with gaijins spaghetti code or server latency or at certain BRs, stabilization.
Most of these work frontally, but their gun can still be disabled. Of course someone trying to have a sniper duel in his BTR-ZD against a Tiger will likely lose, but as I mentioned in this thread previously, my issue isnt with long range, its the CQB maps (as well as how worse the game would get should all AAs get their best aviable anti-ground ammo).
We circle back to aforementioned issues - not all tanks have commander MGs, not all commander MGs are .50cal, and not all SPAAs have exposed gunners.
Again, not difficult, annoying due to aforementioned mobility issues.
All good. 👍
That’s true, but I think that it’s fair.
I mean, they can certainly play like that, though that’s extremely high risk but high reward.
Any teammate nearby / any wrong move can just cause them to instantly die before or after the event.
Maybe, I have no clue though since I wasn’t there xD
Yes, though most, if not all, low tier SPHs have long reloads and little to no armour.
And while SPHs don’t have to be accurate to kill the approaching tanks, neither do the approaching tanks (if they bother to use HE).
True, but I truly insist that the PZH2000 should be 8.0 / 8.3, and not 7.7, which is where the Conqueror is at the moment.
Maybe, but again, shooting the barrel / taking time to kill the tank just asks to get killed by another enemy near that tank, or just get killed by their commander gunner (if they do have one).
The commander gunner doesn’t necessarily have to be 12.7 against the Leopard SPAA, though.
The gunner is completely exposed.
Yes, and most maps are relatively close-range.
That being said, the Leopard SPAA still requires decent aim, planning, and situational awareness to do well in.
Back when it was 5.0, I could definitely see it be more of a problem (since at that BR it can even frontally pen mediums like T-34-57s, and what-not).
I can’t really say the same for the Coelian…
That’s true, but again, I don’t really think that’s a big issue.
If it can decently counter such tanks, then that’s fine.
Leopard SPAA shouldn’t always be HEAVILY countered by every medium tank, nor should all light tanks HEAVILY counter light tanks, and so forth…
Light tanks can (and should) typically easily outflank and kill most TDs, but TDs like the Obj 268, Su-122-54, T95, etc, have pretty good commander MGs with good rotation speed and coverage that effectively negate most of them. (14.5mm and12.7mm respectively)
Fair enough.
Not saying it isnt fair, just that it limits options in some vehicle matchups, which need to be played around.
Yeah but if they trade, say a 4.0 arty for 6.7 heavy its worthy. Its like guided bomb on tracks.
Also team mates are not always around (or sentient enough to react, if i go by my recent 7.0 german experience)
Dont mind that part, it was just anecdotal experience to ilustrate a point.
I do fear a man that loads a HE shell as first round in his medium/heavy.
(Lets be honest, how many people do that)
Absolutely.
Which isnt always the case
Which isnt always the case
Oh yeah, i was being more general, not specifically dealing with the Leo 40/70.
Absolutely but again which tank doesnt?
It funni cuz it obliterates both go-karts and SPHs.
Beyond that, ive got three nukes with it in past two days (tho only one managed to reach the battlefield and in time). I dont think that should be case with AA.
Sometimes, you just get caught with your pants down - its just that with their mobility it happens more often than with tanks of similiar BR, and in such scenarios, their autocannons leave more space for mistakes than normal tank guns
they should weaken these SPAAs in general, its just annoying af
For sure.
I mean for sure, though I can’t say it’s a really viable / worthwhile tactic.
Maybe as a last resort? 😂
Though I wouldn’t do it if you care about performing in GRB.
👍
Not many (if at all), but I can tell you from my own experience is that if I know there’s an M44 that I am about to deal with, I almost always load HE and kill them that way.
I see.
All of them require these skills, but some more than others. I’d say playing the Leopard as a light tank is more difficult than some mediums / other SPAAs. Though the different playstyles require different skills (like knowing when to push, or knowing how to angle, etc).
Yes, and that’s why I think it should be nerfed, even though I know you sure enjoy it 😅
I guess, though most players (especially good players) would rather have the ability to frontally engage most tanks, in which most auto-cannon tanks don’t.
Things like the BMD-4, ZBD04A, BMP-3, etc… all have the ability to kill most tanks front-on at close range relatively easily.
And things like the BTR-80, Leopard SPAA, Badger, Puma, etc, aren’t that good in my opinion, though their usefulness can vary based on the situations they can get into. AKA often very situational.
Where the autocannon leaves more space for mistakes on good flanks, main guns leaves more space for mistakes when accidentally (or when forced) having to frontally engage enemy tank(s).
Me neither, but ive been witness to some strange things in this gsme.
Just to give example - if im approaching a battlefield in CAS plane and i spot three enemy heavy tanks close together hammering our spawn, im not above turning into guided missile and lawdarting into them to ensure three kills in short amount of tine at critical point of battle.
I can see similiar approach with this stuff. If single tank is holding entire flank and you can trade yourself for him, if it allows your team tk regain that flank and additional positioning, i can see it being tactically viable in some cases - but certainly not as regular gameplay tactic.
Oh i do too, not just for M44 but any light skinned vehicle.
But i never load HE as first round over APHE or AP, just asking for trouble if you run into something that isnt a light skinned vehicle.
That i agree.
I do but something needs to be done obviously.
PercisionCap suggested AP ammo to cost additonal SP like we now have with CAS ordnance, i suggested changing load order of ammo racky so that turret ammoracks load first, not last as it is currently.
Well they fit certain roles better than others. Mediums are jack of all tades, whereas IFVs kinda need to be flanking.
Scimitar doesnt have good enough pen to frontally engage most mediums, but i think its APDS is devastating in flanks (since it can go through sides of soviet mediums, unlike 20mm APDS).
That i absolutely agree.
