F15A in 12.7 BR

[Morvran]

@PyroAddict

AFAIK, the Swedish Gripen A is able to carry SARH missiles.

A pair of Skyflash DFs (So basically Aim-7E-2s) that also means giving up BOL rails, So very weak SARH for the BR with a major downside, I doubt few if any actually ever use them and certainly substantially weaker than Aim-7M on the F-15A, let alone R-27ER or any ARH

@PyroAddict

And again, if the F-15A is so much of a menace with its so feared IR IRCCM + SARH combo —albeit missing the radar situation entirely—, then push for its 9Ms to be removed.

Which is what I said

@Morvran_

They are threatening it with the next BR change and it is one of the worst decisions they have ever made, the only way it can move down is loosing the 9Ms.

@PyroAddict

I genuinely doubt anyone would make an argument about it, 9Ms IRCCM only works against false positive flaring people. Anyone aware of a 9M being launched at, most of the time, is able to easily flare it anyway.

They are problematic at the moment, sure, but equally bad on aircraft like the Tornado Gr4 just 0.3 lower and that has half the IR missile count and no SARH at all (and that is just the F-15A with Aim-9M, F-15J with AAM-3 is truly insane)

And they are also under active investigation according to Gunjob, so they might not be quite so problematic in the future (We hope)

[PyroAddict]

@Morvran_

F-15J with AAM-3 is truly insane

I said it on the BR changes thread, the F-15J situation should be addressed separately from the F-15A. AAM-3s are a straight upgrade from AIM-9Ms, those will effectively be a menace even side aspect from more than 3km against 11.7 stuff.

[Morvran]

Yep, its ultimately a compression issue, but the solution isnt making compression worse

[GetYourFloaties]

Sea harrier FA2 has 2 ARH and 2 IRCCM.

F-14A is at 12.7, so you just supported the argument that 12.7 is not a bad BR for it by since you “cant thing of a single reason why they would be all that different”

If we look at planes at 12.7 or that it would have to face for some nations, we will see it’s not all that bad of a change to go to 12.7:

USA:
12.7: F/A-18C Early 6 AIM-7Ps, F-14A Early 6 Aim-54 or 6 AIM-7Fs
12.3: F/A-18A 4 AIM-7Ms (same as F-15A), F-16A 6 AIM-9Ls
12.0: F-4J 6 AIM-7F, F-4S 6 AIM-7F
11.7: A-10C 4 AIM-9Ms, F-111F 6 AIM-9Ls

USSR:
12.7: Mig-29 2 R-27R or R-27ER (both better than AIM-7M) 2 R-27T (IRCCM) 4 R-60M, Yak-141 4 R-27R 4 R-27T 2 R-27ER 2 R-60M
12.3: N/A
12.0: N/A
11.7: SU-25SM3 2 R-73 (IRCCM), Mig-23ML/Mig-23MLD 2 R-24R 2 R-24T 4 R-60M

China:
12.7: N/a
12.3: JH-7A / JH-7A Prototype 4 PL-5EII (IRCCM) 2 PL-8 (40G of pull),
12.0: N/A
11.7: N/A

France:
12.7: F-16A OCU 6 AIM-9Ms 4 R550 Magic 2 (IRCCM), Mirage 2000C-S5 2 Matra Super 530D 2 R550 Magic 2, Mirage 2000D-RMC 2 R550 Magic 2
12.3: Mirage 2000D-R1 2 R550 Magic 2, Mirage 2000C-S4 2 Matra Super 530D 2 R550 Magic 2
12.0: Mirage F1C-200 2 Matra Super 530F 1 Matra Super 530 2 R550 Magic 2, Mirage F1CT 2 Matra Super 530F 2 R550 Magic 2, Mirage F1C 2 Matra Super 530F 1 Matra Super 530 2 R550 Magic 2
11.7: N/A

So really it is not bad to be at 12.7 if you’re so worried about the IRCCM seeing how there are already plenty of planes at that range with IRCCM.

If you’re truly dead set on AIM-9Ms being a problem at 12.7, then you should be all for the proposed system of BRs changing based on what ordinance you unlock.

For example, F-15A gets moved to 12.3 until AIM-7s get unlocked and it goes to 12.7. Once AIM-9Ms are unlocked, it goes to 13.0. Then you don’t have to deal with ARH while stock, and 11.7 doesnt have to deal with AIM-9Ms.

Now if you compare the F-15A to the planes ABOVE it, that’s where the problem becomes clear especially since majority of games are up tiers.

This list I will make short and quick and only include US and Russia

USA:
13.0: F-14B and F-14A IRAF 6 and 4 Aim-54s respectfully, AV-8B plus 4 AIM-120
13.3: F-16A ADF 6 AIM-120,
13.7: F-16C 6 AIM-120s/6 AIM-9Ms, F-15C MSIP II 8 AIM-120/4 AIM-9Ms,
14.0: F/A-18C Late 10 AIM-120B or C 6 AIM-9Ms, F-15E 8 AIM-120B or C 4 AIM-9Ms

Russia:
13.0: SU-33 8 R-27ER 6 R-73 (IRCCM), Su-27 6 R-27ER 2 R-27T/ET (IRCCM) 6 R-73,
13.3: Mig-29SMT 6 R-77 2 R-27ER 2 R-27T/ET 6 R-73, SU-30Mk2 AMV 6 RVV-AE 6 R-27ER1 2 R-27ET1 6 R-73E,
13.7: SU-34 8 R-77 8 R-27R/ER 8 R-27T/ET 6 R-73, SU-27SM 8 R-77 6 R-27R/ER 2 R-27T/ET 6 R-73
14.0: N/A

[ron_23]

@GetYourFloaties

R-27R or R-27ER (both better than AIM-7M)

the r27r is infact not better than the 7m, why do you think that gaijin gave the mig29 the 27er 8if the 27r is already better than the sparrow

@GetYourFloaties

Yak-141 4 R-24R

where are you getting that the yak141 carries the r24r?

[GetYourFloaties]

They both 100% are better than the AIM-7 M on the F-15A.

They both have IOG+DL, the 7M does not.
R has a launch range of 34 miles, top speed of 3.5M, can pull 35G, has guidance of 60s.
ER has a launch range of 62 miles, top speed of 5.8M, pulls 35G, and has guidance of 60s.

The AIM-7M has launch range of 62, top speed of 4.0M, can only pull 25G, and has a 75s guidance.

R beats it in pull, ER beats it in speed and pull. the launch range is negligible because you’re never going to actually be at that range when you launch. And in practice and experience, the R-27R generally has a better success rate than the AIM-7M because of the fact it has IOG and DL

And heaven forbid I put the wrong missile on accident.

[kizvy]

@ron_23

the r27r is infact not better than the 7m, why do you think that gaijin gave the mig29 the 27er 8if the 27r is already better than the sparrow

eh i would argue it is for rb wt purposes as it has better acceleration and turn below 8 seconds/8-10ish km.
Most of the time when you’re firing a sarh missile its within that time frame so it’s better.
Plus you cannot out roll r-27rs once it gets up to speed, unlike aim 7f/m although most people don’t know how to outroll one.
Above that range tho, aim 7 is better

[GetYourFloaties]

And in addition to all that, the Mig-29 and Yak-141 have TWS and HMS, the F-15A doesn’t.

[kizvy]

add on to that, yak 141 radar/ mig-29smt radar is also probably best mech scan radar in the game

[GetYourFloaties]

A true

moment

[kizvy]

to be fair it is honestly really good irl, just from looking at the zhuk radar stuff

[GetYourFloaties]

When it is actually maintained and works correctly, yes it is a good radar. But doesn’t matter how good the radar is when the platform doesn’t get off the ground or the radar itself isn’t maintained.

[ron_23]

@kizvy

radar is also probably best mech scan radar in the game

a true connoisseur knows that it is the J-10A radar

:clueless:

[Ion_492]

@GetYourFloaties

If we look at planes at 12.7 or that it would have to face for some nations, we will see it’s not all that bad of a change to go to 12.7:

In it’s current state the F-15A is objectively better than several 13.0s, including all 13.0 Harriers, the Ja37DI, and the Mig-29G.

@GetYourFloaties

So really it is not bad to be at 12.7 if you’re so worried about the IRCCM seeing how there are already plenty of planes at that range with IRCCM.

The issue isn’t just IRCCM, it’s the mix of flight performance, avionics quality, and how good the loadout is.

@GetYourFloaties

Now if you compare the F-15A to the planes ABOVE it, that’s where the problem becomes clear especially since majority of games are up tiers.

This is a bad way to balance and just leads to stuff going down in BR when it shouldn’t.

[ron_23]

and that applies to every single pice of equipment ever

not even only military equipment

[kizvy]

@GetYourFloaties

R beats it in pull, ER beats it in speed and pull.

aim 7m never pulling like this

[GetYourFloaties]

Exactly

[Normandy_Corsair]

What part of “The F-15 curb stomps everything below 13.0 with no chance of the jets countering it” is lost to you? F-15A does better in uptiers than aircraft below it do to the F-15A.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@PyroAddict

I said it on the BR changes thread, the F-15J situation should be addressed separately from the F-15A. AAM-3s are a straight upgrade from AIM-9Ms, those will effectively be a menace even side aspect from more than 3km against 11.7 stuff.

If F-15A goes down, there is zero reasoning for why F-15J wouldn’t as well. Don’t try to start comparing AIM-9M and AAM-3 and act like that justifies a 0.3br difference.

[PyroAddict]

@Normandy_Corsair

If F-15A goes down, there is zero reasoning for why F-15J wouldn’t as well. Don’t try to start comparing AIM-9M and AAM-3 and act like that justifies a 0.3br difference.

Every argument I've done around the F-15s going down in BR has been hopefully without its IRCCM missiles, keep yapping and (over)glazing it anyway.

And besides, AAM-3s are quite the upgrade from AIM-9Ms. Look who’s downplaying them now because we’re discussing something it may benefit the US. And judging by the cryout, it will possibly be reversed, so relax. The F-15As will probably remain being easy food on 13.0-13.3 games.